DGPT: Approved Baskets for the Pro Tour

[lyleoross]

Oh sorry, yeah that was a mistake! Crap I wish I could edit to fix that, thanks for pointing that out though.

LOL

The way I keep them straight -

Dave is the dead godfather of our sport and

Ed is the live godfather of our sport.

No wait...

Yes, I have a black sense of humor. Sorry Dave.

As an aside, it's amazing where the sport has come since the innovations of those two.

 

[Consult20]

LOL

The way I keep them straight -

Dave is the dead godfather of our sport and

Ed is the live godfather of our sport.

No wait...

Yes, I have a black sense of humor. Sorry Dave.

As an aside, it's amazing where the sport has come since the innovations of those two.

Hey now, Ed is still around! His PDGA membership is active and he's available in a limited production of discs with "black speckles"

Yeah, I'm hoping the knee high tube socks and short shorts make a comeback (ok, maybe not). But someone rocking the Payne Stewart look would be cool. Actually, I think that would be a good look for Steve Dodge.

 

[onemilemore]

Yeah, I'm hoping the knee high tube socks and short shorts make a comeback

Should be mandatory dress code for the Masters Cup iwbh

 

[lyleoross]

Okay uncle. Tube socks, fine, short shorts bleh. No one wants to look at my old hairy legs, no one.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Hard to find short shorts unless you still fit in them. They're even too short for Goodwill to keep around for resale. The tall, striped socks these days are more likely to be made for elf outfits and to keep warm in winter.

 

[Consult20]

Hard to find short shorts unless you still fit in them. They're even too short for Goodwill to keep around for resale. The tall, striped socks these days are more likely to be made for elf outfits and to keep warm in winter.

Probably not as hard to find as you think -- yikes! Which one is Lyle?

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/short-shorts-mens-summer-fashion

 

[Cgkdisc]

That headline is a bit misleading. Those shorts are not shorter than ever, just shorter than recently. They still look baggier and a bit longer than the old days. But then we probably had more muscular legs than the millenimodels strutting those new looks.

 

[onemilemore]

I dressed as Michael Cera from Juno for Halloween a couple years back. The shorts and socks can be found.

 

[ru4por]

Random Outcomes is the key here. If it were as simple as "adjust your putt" for a Chainstar that would be one thing, but what Dana and other pros are getting at, IMO, is that the spit out margin is too narrow to expect a player to "adjust" their style. In my experience Chainstars spit putts that would of otherwise stayed in if the putt would have entered the chain assembly less than an inch all 4 ways (up, down, left, right). So, these spit outs are not something the player can reasonably overcome once you get past 20 feet or so, and therefore, create random outcomes, which is what you want to minimize in competition as much as possible.

It's the same logic with fairways in the woods. A 6 foot gap 250 FT down a fairway is bad. On the surface, it's fair, because you just have to "hit the gap", but any good player knows that is just a crap shoot kind of shot.

Titans should be on the list fo sho though.

I would argue that the spit outs are no more random than any other basket. Perhaps more frequent, but again, that is for all participants.

 

[Karl]

A few things:

1. If ANY pro tour wishes to get "exclusive" on their choice of baskets, fine; it's their show.
2. During any play, EVERYONE has to shoot at the same baskets...so it really doesn't make any difference.
3. As much as some people want to distance dg from golf, it's not going to happen. They (bg) invented a game that 'starts at point A and goes to point B, repeat numerous times, and try to do so in the fewest number'. Since we copied that aspect of it it isn't going away.
3a. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck you can call it a hippo but it isn't...
3b. Since it IS a form of golf - and one of golf's challenges is in it changing physical dynamics (hard vs. soft), we too should have such...but we don't with the newer baskets.
4. Now-a-days it's "drive hard, putt harder". Maybe the PTBs WANT it to be considered "a totally different sport than 'golf'"
5. "Softer baskets" (less chains, etc.) require you to 'feather' a putt in.
6. The original purpose of the chains was as a 'deflection device' NOT as an entrapment device. The goal was "to toss the disc into the basket"! The basket is STILL the end-all (but we've allowed that a disc ensnared in the chains to count too).
7. As S. West pointed out previously, a 3 dimensional challenge is harder than a 2 dimensional one.
8. And since we have the oddest, most convoluted, misunderstood 'end point' in sports, perhaps we should just allow any baskets...after all, it really doesn't matter (again, see 2. above).
9. Another vote for "18 different baskets on a course"...and why limit them to "championship" baskets?

Ps: If your putt didn't go in the basket (or get ensnared within the chains) you did NOT, NOT, NOT throw a good putt! This is not a sport whose 'end point' is to "..hit a 22"x21" target.." (or whatever the size of a chain assembly is). It's amazing how many players fail to remember this :wall:

 

[GoldeyeGolf]

I was going to post on this, but Karl just said everything I had in mind and more. Good job.

 

[Tee1]

Kudos to Karl for laying that out so eloquently. I enjoy the fact that our beloved targets can be unpredictable.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Karl missed the mark just a bit on the intent of the chains. They were actually a surrogate for the original post which always "caught" every putt that contacted it within the target height range. The basket was needed to confirm from a distance that the chains (hypothetical post) were struck. However, if Ed actually used just a post/pole with a basket, there's a good chance good putts that hit the pole would deflect too far to be caught in the basket unless it were much larger than it is.

The point being that ideally Ed wanted every good putt to be caught and thought the original chain pattern was good enough to do so, at least for Frisbees. He essentially stated that in the second patent when he added the inner chains to make sure good putts hitting the chains with the smaller diameter discs would also be "confirmed" by landing in the chains or basket.

The tone pole which was made for a while (Yadkinville, NC course) was an improved post target but was ahead of its time because it didn't have a 100% way to confirm a hit, just the sound which may not be heard from a distance. If a solar powered sensor with LED was added to the tone pole assembly to flash for 10-15 seconds upon contact, it could be converted (with some other enhancements into a better ballistic target (and maybe cheaper) than current Championship targets with the newer X chain pattern.

 

[lyleoross]

Can we get back to the important topic here? Who looks better in tube socks?

I mostly agree with Karl.

Somewhere upstream I wrote that players are playing with the attitude that the basket should catch my putt. Instead, they should be asking, what do I need to do to keep my disc in the basket.

I do think consistency is important. A player should be able to have a feel for the targets. If each hole is different, it is fair. But consistency allows players to take calculated risks on how they know the basket will perform. Necessary, no. More exciting, for me yes.

 

[krupicka]

If baskets required more of a touch shot rather than a drill it as hard as I can shot, would that be more visually appealing for spectators?

 

[ejvogie]

If baskets required more of a touch shot rather than a drill it as hard as I can shot, would that be more visually appealing for spectators?

I think so. It would add more drama to those 30' putts that are so automatic for most pros.

 

[lyleoross]

If baskets required more of a touch shot rather than a drill it as hard as I can shot, would that be more visually appealing for spectators?

This is a case where thinking about other sports helps. No one thinks BG is boring because a golfer can't drill a putt from 10 feet and have it stay in.

As ev aludes to. Thirty footers are almost mundane now. Adding some challenge and making these putts interesting would benefit the spectator.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If baskets required more of a touch shot rather than a drill it as hard as I can shot, would that be more visually appealing for spectators?

Could increase pro scoring separation but unlikely to move the spectator needle.

 

[Consult20]

?..If a solar powered sensor with LED was added to the tone pole assembly to flash for 10-15 seconds upon contact, it could be converted (with some other enhancements into a better ballistic target (and maybe cheaper) than current Championship targets with the newer X chain pattern.

Adding technology isn't always an improvement, Ed's basket and chain design was brilliant and I hope the core design never changes. An ace or a long throw in just wouldn't be the same.

Anyone who practices putting a lot knows what a good putt is, and obviously Ed did too since he saw good putts bouncing out or blowing through the sparse single chain design. Penalizing a player for missing a good putt was not what he wanted, and not what the DGPT wants either. There are some basket designs that do just that, and avoiding those for this tour makes perfect sense.

 

[Cgkdisc]

My point is that if consistent results, non-fluky, ballistic putting is desired, optimizing the chain system will never get there because it will always be radially inconsistent. Only a different type of target will get the job done.

There's no drum beat out there to change our current baskets for daily play. But perhaps a different target for elite pro play would increase interest to watch since most players would never be playing those targets. I think spectator interest could be increased due to exclusivity as promoters experiment with ways to diverge the elite pro game format from the rec format.