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Elver and Hiestand Park

Elver has a couple holes that run directly across a very well-used hill. Runners, hikers, general meandering. When I was there, we had to wait quite a while just for the hill to clear enough to be able to throw across it. Seems very odd for a P2P course.

Unfortunately, running the hill at Elver is practically an institution. I have had to stand at the bottom of the hill during the Mad City Open to keep runners off the hill. Good times.

This has been discussed before at meeting with the parks department. Idealism vs. realism here. We can wave our season permits in the air all we want, but someone who has been running up and down that hill for years isn't likely to stop.
 
#2 and #3... many a disagreement over the years about right of way on 2 and 3. You have to bite the bullet there and be patient. I didn't make it to Elver last year, but I hear #9 has been reworked to make it less blind off the tee... Anybody know anything about reworking 2 and 3?

Removing the holes on the hill has been discussed, but there's nothing in the works at this time. The topic may be revisited in the future.
 
I'm with you on all of this. No winter disc golf option in the City of Madison is really sad.

Hiestand has traditionally been open year round except for March and April when the turf is soft. It has been closed the last two years because the parks department has been working on restoring the turf on about half of the fairways.

Elver has always been closed during the winter because parts of the course are used for cross country skiing.

I brought up the idea of a winter course (I lived the Milwaukee when the Dretzka winter course was born) and they were very receptive to the idea. Based on talks I've had with a couple of people in Madison Parks, it sounds like a winter course could be coming. For the record, I don't think they owe us 12 months of disc golf. $40 for two nice 18 hole courses for 6-7 months seems fair to me.
 
Adding a decent winter course in Madison would be a huge step in the right direction of making those passes worth the cost, IMO.
 
Adding a decent winter course in Madison would be a huge step in the right direction of making those passes worth the cost, IMO.

It's going to take more than one, but you're correct in saying it's the right direction.
 
I just started playing disc golf towards the end of last summer, so the current situation in the Madison area is all that I really know when it comes to this sport. Personally, I have no problems with P2P. Overall it is probably a good thing for the sport. Based on what I've seen in this thread, it looks like the city is moving in the right direction with their courses even though we might not see the results for some time (my user name is appropriate), and if the money is going towards a new course, and being able to keep one open during the winter, it's all worth it in my opinion.

Having said all of that, I completely understand the other side of the debate. It is frustrating that 4 courses are run by 2 different public entities (Elver and Hiestand being run by the city parks and Cap Springs/Vallarta being run by Dane County Parks). It's quite frustrating that there's no winter courses in the city. It's very frustrating to have to deal with the reality of Elver Park being a popular multi-use park. I understand why there's people against paying for that reality. However, I'm being made to understand here that the money is being used to change all of that, and if that is the case then I am all for it.
 
FYI, here is the text of a resolution passed by the Madison Area Disc Club (now Mad City Disc Golf) Board of Directors and sent to the City's parks department in 2012. As discussed by others earlier, both of the conditions of our support have been satisfied. A number of our recommendations have also been implemented, and the others have at least been discussed and remain possibilities.
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The Madison Area Disc Club (MADC) has been a proud partner with the City of Madison Parks Department in the development, operations, and maintenance of the disc golf courses at Elver Park and Hiestand Park, as well as on-going community outreach and other disc golf events. We have provided many thousands of hours of volunteer labor, plus substantial monetary resources, in these efforts. Disc golf has proven to be a popular attraction in the parks, in part due to both its low cost and ease of play. The existing courses are used exhaustively, and the Club recognizes that it will be difficult to improve, much less maintain, the disc golf program without additional resources.

Therefore, the Madison Area Disc Club supports the implementation of a fee-based, or pay-to-play, permit system, subject to the following two conditions:

1. All revenues generated from daily, annual, and any other disc golf permits will be held in a segregated, non-reverting fund, only to be used for the disc golf program and related administrative expenses, such as Park Ranger enforcement hours dedicated to disc golf.

2. The Madison Area Disc Club will play an integral role in decisions made regarding the best uses of revenue generated from the permits.

Based on feedback from MADC members, directors, and other disc golfers, the Club recommends that the Parks Department consider disc golf program policies and priority uses of revenue that include, but are not limited to, the following:

1. The Parks Department should furnish trash receptacles and be responsible for the removal of trash from the courses. Currently, the Club, through our volunteer-based Adopt-a-Hole program, provides receptacles, empties full trash bags and moves them to specified locations for City pick-up. It has been a challenge to keep up with increasing use of the courses.

2. Park Rangers should enforce permits and park rules on the disc golf courses, especially the prohibition of glass bottles. Rangers should be encouraged to offer violators of the permit program a chance to purchase the proper permit before issuing a citation.

3. The cost of a daily permit should not exceed $5, and the cost of an annual permit should not exceed $50. Children under the age of 16 should not be required to purchase a permit.

4. Revenues should be used to enhance disc golf course amenities and equipment, such as baskets, tee pads, tee signs, benches, turfgrass renovation, and erosion control features, and to repair and replace aging and broken equipment as necessary. Revenues should also be used for an increased level of regular course maintenance, such as mowing, landscaping, removal of invasive and noxious plants, etc.

5. To satisfy growing demand for the sport, the City should consider the creation of additional disc golf courses in existing and new City parks and other City-owned lands. This should include championship-level courses that would be included in the fee-based permit system, but should also include recreational-level courses and practice areas that would remain free.

6. Consideration should be given to allowing leashed dogs to accompany their owners (with the proper City / County dog permit) onto the courses.

7. The City and Club should develop a solution that allows for at least a portion of one or more disc golf courses to be open for winter play, while mitigating conflicts with other seasonal park uses and minimizing damage to the grounds.

This resolution was passed by the Board of Directors of the Madison Area Disc Club on Thursday, July 12th, 2012.
 
I think we're all being a bit short sighted, in a way.

Consider the Twin Cities.

They have at least three different entities running courses, all having their own passes. Two of the entities charge similar pricing to what we pay in Madison. Blue Ribbon Pines charges on a rolling basis depending on what time of year you buy, but their passes are still 3-4 times what a Madison city pass is.

We can huff and puff all we want about how the passes don't allow us access to winter courses. Or we can advocate to the City and County and ask them for things we feel we want. If you want to see things happen, do something about it.

There may be an argument that the passes are only for peak season, but ultimately, if you buy both at $88 total, you're paying roughly $14 a month to play disc golf at four courses, and that assumes that the courses get pulled early. That also is only an amortization for the months the courses are in the ground. If you space it out as a yearly investment, it's closer to $7 a month. I believe that most of us could find something in our lives to cut out each month to save for the passes if that's truly an issue.

I'm not ignorant to the fact that $40 or $48 or $88 for both is a lot of money to some people. I do wish we could see some sort of fee waiver or work agreement on the courses. Maybe I need to take my own advice and suggest this, though I believe it already has been mentioned. My thoughts are directed at those of us who can easily afford the passes and still complain.

We have it pretty good here. Our sport is growing and the courses were never designed to take as much traffic as they now get.

If any of you own cars or homes, you'll understand that preventative maintenance is far cheaper than paying to fix something that's already falling apart.
 
Still waiting for them to figure out how to cover all courses with one pass. They have it figured out for the boat landings across more municipalities and locations with a much larger group of users, so a few parks shouldn't (hypothetically) be a problem.

This has been discussed before Madison went P2P, and since then. Short story is that neither side was very much interested in it, for different reasons. Options, including those such as Steve West has promoted, will undoubtedly be discussed again. I know the City wanted to see how things went for a few years.

Hiestand was a dump a few years ago when us disc golfers were in charge of clean up. Ill pay 40 a year just for the trash removal. Anything else is just a bonus I feel.

This was one of the biggest reasons the club supported the concept, and has been one of the biggest benefits. The only reasons there were trash cans in the first place (before P2P) were because the club got them donated and agreed to empty them. There were thoughts of pulling the courses before that due to the amount of litter that disc golfers created. I never understood how some of our fellow golfers could happily carry in a full 6 or 12-pack of beer, yet couldn't be troubled to carry the empties off the course and at least throw them in one of the dumpsters / containers on the way back to the parking lot. Even with trash cans out there, far too many cans and bottles ended up in the brush and off the side of the tees / fairways. Honestly, if disc golfers had respected the ban on glass bottles, the Adopt-A-Hole program would have been much easier to maintain.

Take a look at Charlotte. Charlotte has phenomenal courses and they're free to play and the city's population is almost twice that of Madison.

Madison's Park Operations manager came from Charlotte / Mecklenburg County parks, and was actively involved while they were putting in new courses in prep for Worlds a few years ago. Interestingly enough, he's the one who spearheaded the P2P effort in Madison, knowing what it would take to maintain, restore, and improve the local courses. He's a former ball golf course superintendent with a background in turfgrass management, and is very interested in improving the conditions of the disc golf courses.

So you've got a part-time ranger, course improvements, and some piece of that emerald ash borer mitigation. The season passes probably don't cover it.

Dane County, whose courses have been P2P from the beginning, have confirmed that their fees do not cover the costs of providing disc golf. I strongly suspect the same is true for Madison.

At Hiestand Park...
Ranger? Last year I only saw a Ranger appear at #1 tee area.
...
I'd like to see a couple free courses debut in the City. And baskets in Parks, like jungle gyms. 2- 3 baskets for kids to learn on and others to practice. Hope some of the revenue goes in that direction.

We agree that the ranger presence should be intensified, and have brought it up a number of times. We'll see how it goes this year.

As my previous post showed, we also want the City to provide some free (likely 9-hole) courses. We've also suggested smaller practice areas with a basket or two. There is already one City park with two baskets, but that was primarily due to the neighborhood homeowner's association. The City of Middleton is currently planning to add some practice baskets in a few parks, and we'd certainly recommend other communities to do the same.

A couple free 9 hole courses would help a ton in Madison. Milwaukee is doing that, and it should help with traffic. Give the uber-casuals a place to go play for free.

Agree 100%.

More communication, more involvement of rangers, a consortium, and some winter disc golf for the community: add that to my list of wishes.

The City (and other municipal) and County parks departments probably talk a lot more than people think. As brought up by others, they already share passes for things like dog parks, X-C skiing, and boat landings. The Parks Director in Marshall is new and we've already discussed disc golf with him. Communications between the various parks departments is something our club continues to try and encourage and facilitate. There have been conversations with the City about providing winter disc golf, whether on an existing course or other location, and I know we will revisit the topic this year.

Removing the holes on the hill has been discussed, but there's nothing in the works at this time. The topic may be revisited in the future.

Yup. Duster (the original designer) and others have looked at possibilities, which also include additional holes. The City's priorities were to rework a few holes (#8, 9, 14, 16) and make some progress on erosion issues. I suspect the issues with the first few holes will be fairly high on the list of things to do next at Elver, but could also be part of the possibility of adding more holes to the course. There is plenty of room.
 
Good post!

I know some of the people in this thread are probably thinking I'm completely against P2P, which just isn't true. It just seems, for such a large city, that it could be done better.
 
Good post!

I know some of the people in this thread are probably thinking I'm completely against P2P, which just isn't true. It just seems, for such a large city, that it could be done better.

Madison isn't really that big, and save for shutting down the courses for a season to re-sod and completely rebuild things, progress will be slow.

We can't expect sweeping changes while also expecting to be able to use the course year round. If nothing changes at the end of a 5 year cycle, then by all means, complain.

The county courses were always pay to play and they are kept up and are in great condition. Had Hiestand and Elver started that way, I'm certain everything would be different. That's not the reality.
 
Anyone happen to know how to get in touch with whoever is in charge of changing basket placements at Elver? They suck at it.

Case in point, there are 2 pin placements on the new hole 8 - still never seen the harder one. There were 2 placements on new 9 - never saw the harder one and it was recently torn out. They had new 14 up for a long time and left 16 at old spot, which causes those holes to conflict, nearly playing on top of one another (can't remember how many people I saw almost get hit, and how many times I saw someone on hole 14 pick up someone's drive from 16 not realizing why it was in 14's fairway). So then they moved 16 to new spot for 1 week and then moved them both back. Hole 17 has been at shorts for like 3 weeks (which makes it an easy deuce when it is normally the hardest or second hardest hole on the course - in years past they would only have it there for like 1 week per season). Also, when they move baskets (which is not often), they typically move no more than 1-2 at a time.

Really, I just want to know if whoever changes the placements actually plays the game, because it doesn't seem like it. It's just frustrating when you compare it to the county courses that have all pins moved like once a week.

Sorry, rant over.
 
Its the parks department that moves them all now. They changed all the locks at hiestand/elver so none of the folks who use to move them can anymore. The head park ranger is who u could talk to about this. He is a novice dg'er and when I've talked to him seems very receptive on positive feedback. We get spoiled at token cause Larry lives basically on the property and changes them frequently.
 
So, it seems that most of the top 20 in Wisco is a pay to play with Zobel, Silver Creek, Big Eau Plaine, Grey Fox, Dretzka, Brown Deer, and Yulga being the exception. Guess its just the way disc golf is trending. I've been toying around with the idea of charging for my 9 hole course but in the long run will most likely be donations.

Update: Dretzka and Brown Deeer are P@P now
 
Is there anyone in the know with Madison parks department that can tell me what's going on at Elver? Elver has still not been mowed once this year; there is literally 18" long grass in the fairways and people are spending 2 minutes finding a great shot in the middle of the fairway (5, 6, 8, 11 are the worst). Also, I don't think any of the garbage cans have been emptied - most are overflowing at this point.

I appreciate the work that has been done on Elver (there is a lot of stuff that's been cleared out and cleaned up in preparation for MCO and Worlds), but these little things are really frustrating for a pay to play course. I mean, it's almost June and the grass hasn't been mowed yet...somehow that never happens with the county courses.
 
Is there anyone in the know with Madison parks department that can tell me what's going on at Elver? Elver has still not been mowed once this year; there is literally 18" long grass in the fairways and people are spending 2 minutes finding a great shot in the middle of the fairway (5, 6, 8, 11 are the worst). Also, I don't think any of the garbage cans have been emptied - most are overflowing at this point.

I appreciate the work that has been done on Elver (there is a lot of stuff that's been cleared out and cleaned up in preparation for MCO and Worlds), but these little things are really frustrating for a pay to play course. I mean, it's almost June and the grass hasn't been mowed yet...somehow that never happens with the county courses.

Maybe they're going for the US Open look :eek:
 
So yesterday a friend of mine complained about the mowing on Facebook (and apparently got a lot of agreement), and then today, probably as I was posting the post above, they mowed.

I really hope this was a coincidence and there was some reason for the delay in mowing, other than the fact that people weren't complaining yet.

But man, it was nice to get some skips at elver today for the first time in a month.
 
Just an FYI that the baskets at Elver are all in the new pin positions if they have them (except 12).

The new placements are:

1 - About 60 ft deeper up the hill in the trees. Basket has a nice rock circle around it. They left 4 or 5 trees between the short and long pins. Love this spot.

4 - Fence behind the pin was removed and the area behind the fence cleaned out. Also really like this spot. Played longs yesterday, but I think this is actually tougher from shorts now. Gotta go up and over the bush and still get 300' or so.

5 - New spot is 30' left of old spot. Meh, doesn't change much. Brings a bush into play a little more.

12 - Another meh one. New placement is where bad shots at old placement go; left and short of the usual spot. Should be pretty fun from longs though. From shorts it's gonna just be an easy putter hyzer.

13 - New spot is a bit deeper and left of the usual spot. I like it. Doesn't change the throw much; just putting the other direction after you drive. Going to make it much tougher for RHFHers though.

17 - New spot about halfway between long and short pin, and further right. This one I really like also. The pin is in a great spot, guarded well but with a couple clear lanes to the pin still. From longs especially it's a nice shot.
 
New pin placements are in development at Hiestand, too. I wanna say # 3, #15 and #17. #2 had trees removed up in front
of the left pin placement.
 
I played Heistand today (6/17) and hole 17 was back to the normal placement. It was good to see some extra mowing on holes 4 and 15 though.
 
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