[Question] Firebirds Illegal!

[Three Putt]

If the PDGA actually cares about this rule, that is a way to start enforcing it without completely ticking off the Disc Golfing Community.

That's the thing...they have not seemed to care for years as they are not transparent about the testing. If they released a "tested X disc in Y plastic for flexibility; passed" update then we would know they were doing this periodically, but they don't. So we don't know what kind of testing is going on and so far as we know they have totally ignored things like the Cam Todd Challengers. Maybe they tested them, maybe they didn't. All I know it that those suckers were stiff and I can't believe that they passed if they were tested. Maybe Discraft had their hands slapped over them and didn't say anything about it? The stiff Challengers did go away. Who knows? It's all a guess. So maybe this happens from time to time and Gateway is just the first company to make it public. Maybe Gateway got singled out for some reason. Who knows?

I'll defend Gateway on this one to the point that if there are rules that you break all the time over 13-14 years and you never get called on them, when you do finally get called on them you will be ticked off. Why now? Did the PDGA just now figure out that M Wizards are really stiff? Where have they been? Those stiff Wizards (and Aviars and Challengers) have been around for so long I figured the PDGA DIDN'T care.

 

[tbird888]

That's the thing...they have not seemed to care for years as they are not transparent about the testing. If they released a "tested X disc in Y plastic for flexibility; passed" update then we would know they were doing this periodically, but they don't. So we don't know what kind of testing is going on and so far as we know they have totally ignored things like the Cam Todd Challengers. Maybe they tested them, maybe they didn't. All I know it that those suckers were stiff and I can't believe that they passed if they were tested. Maybe Discraft had their hands slapped over them and didn't say anything about it? The stiff Challengers did go away. Who knows? It's all a guess. So maybe this happens from time to time and Gateway is just the first company to make it public. Maybe Gateway got singled out for some reason. Who knows?

I'll defend Gateway on this one to the point that if there are rules that you break all the time over 13-14 years and you never get called on them, when you do finally get called on them you will be ticked off. Why now? Did the PDGA just now figure out that M Wizards are really stiff? Where have they been? Those stiff Wizards (and Aviars and Challengers) have been around for so long I figured the PDGA DIDN'T care.

What you're discussing is a proactive approach to rule enforcement, and the reps who've been bold enough to post on the topic are very clear that the path of least resistance is the one that will be taken by the PDGA.

As for Discraft and firm Challengers, I believe the Nate Doss Challengers from last year that were sold specifically on his site to raise funds for touring were as close to the Cam Todd's as they've gotten. I guarantee they didn't send any to the PDGA.

 

[pablo.diablo]

"Have you ever made discs that were too stiff per the PDGA during the past 15 years?"

"Yes"

"Did you knowingly produce discs that were too stiff?"

"Yes"

"Did you consider it to be cheating?"

"No, we looked up the definition of cheating. We viewed it as competing on a level playing field"

 

[77586]

I disagree with the whole " enforce across the board" thing. Its cool if the pdga wants to take away gateway stuff, but don't go messing with innova, especially stuff I throw.

 

[Plankeye]

"Have you ever made discs that were too stiff per the PDGA during the past 15 years?"

"Yes"

"Did you knowingly produce discs that were too stiff?"

"Yes"

"Did you consider it to be cheating?"

"No, we looked up the definition of cheating. We viewed it as competing on a level playing field"

:thmbup:

 

[jhoover]

 

[wake911]

Has the PDGA released any official statement on legality with regards to this stiffness issue? Even about the Gateway issue and legality of using any of their discs? All I've seen is hypothetical and conjecture. (i think I've read the whole gateway thread as well)

 

[elnino]

You can't kill the firebird
The firebird will live on

discdoh tried to destroy the firebird
But firebird was much too strong
Techno tried to defile the firebird
But techno was proven wrong

Firebird!
It comes from hell

awesome!!!

i have a team airforce firebird

but this team glow is 5x as stiff...i call it the baby killer!!!

the glows are just so hard. i don't see them passing this test in Hawaii bending to 25% of the diameter.

 

[elnino]

I wonder if any discs WOULD PASS this test?

2013 the year you can't throw any plastic!

vibram? cuz its rubber

 

[spikodelhyzer]

the glows are just so hard. i don't see them passing this test in Hawaii bending to 25% of the diameter.

I have an old glow from when the champ glows were first re-released and there is no way it is legal. The thing is the stiffest disc I own next to an old firm wizard.

 

[doctor professor]

I disagree with the whole " enforce across the board" thing. Its cool if the pdga wants to take away gateway stuff, but don't go messing with innova, especially stuff I throw.

What?! I really hope you're kidding.

 

[kerplunk]

The rule that has been quoted here a couple of times says that discs cannot be tested ABOVE 77 degrees- i.e. you can't perform the test at a temp so hot that your disc is half melting. A lot of you seem to have read that wrong and gotten the opposite impression. Also, I didn't see any mention of a TD being able to test a disc during a tourney, the quoted rule indicates this type of testing should be performed on a disc mold to ensure the legality of that mold, not on individual discs. All of you saying how this rule would be unenforceable seem to have missed that point as well. Sorry for sounding douchey, but I think if people understand the rule a bit better they may revise their opinions.

As for my opinion, I think it is kind of strange that the disc most recently declared illegal is a putter, which most of us can agree will cause the least amount of damage, due to both the lower speed and fatter rim, which helps distribute the impact. I would much rather take a stiff Wizard to the head than a legal Firebird (why does that sound dirty?). I am not sure if I am fer or agin the stiffness rules, but I am of the opinion that if the rule is enforced it should be enforced consistently.

 

[zenbot]

Personally I hate that the Wizards are getting picked on. I love stiff putters; I try to find the stiffest ones I can find. I started using stiff putters on the recommendation of a pro disc golfer 17 years ago. He used to help me go through the stacks of Aviars in the shop at White Birch and pick out the "good ones." As softer putters like the Omega SS came out, I came to appreciate the consistency I got from stiff-as-a-board putters and I never noticed any catching advantage from soft putters. I've received bad advice from pro disc golfers before, but this advice was spot-on IMO. The pro disc golfers name? Dave McCormack.

Aren't you, like, the last person that should be giving opinions on putters?

*tries to give Three Putt an infraction, realizes that the button does nothing*

Curses!

 

[ejvogie]

I think everybody's missing a point here. There is no vast conspiracy against Gateway. They sent those discs to the PDGA of their own free will, and someone noticed how stiff they were.

It's like sending pot-laced brownies as a donation to the police fund bake sale.

 

[BirdmanCR]

I hope they dont test cam todds. Those things are stright up bricks and i LOVE them,

 

[New013]

gateway is evil

 

[notroman]

I think everybody's missing a point here. There is no vast conspiracy against Gateway. They sent those discs to the PDGA of their own free will, and someone noticed how stiff they were.

It's like sending pot-laced brownies as a donation to the police fund bake sale.

My argument against that is they have a pro shop at IDGC where they sell all sorts of discs, including the Firebirds that people keep talking about. They have a lot of these discs on hand.

 

[spikodelhyzer]

I think everybody's missing a point here. There is no vast conspiracy against Gateway. They sent those discs to the PDGA of their own free will, and someone noticed how stiff they were.

It's like sending pot-laced brownies as a donation to the police fund bake sale.

It's really not like that at all.

 

[The Hammer]

It's really not like that at all.

Lets find out.

 

[Pwingles]

@ThreePutt

I read somewhere in the wiz thread that gateway essentially called themselves out on their legality and then labeled them illegal. Im paraphrasing of course. Did i dream that up? Are they wrong?