How many people have actually pursued the right pec drills?

[Lewis]

I posted a video of me driving to get advice from the DGCR community. Some of the replies were unreasonably harsh (DGR-style, if you know what I mean), but after I swallowed the instinct to be offended, I took another look at the Beto videos that I had been aware of for months if not years, and decided to try them out in practice. After a couple of short practice sessions in an open field, I started feeling the explosion out of the hand that is typically described as "the hit," but could only produce it with my putters. The main things the pec drill did for me is help me gain awareness of the plane of my pull across my body, improve the timing between my shoulder and my elbow, and explore a deeper reach back. The practice, albeit a rather short-lived effort in my case, helped me improve my driving accuracy, and while it didn't improve my driving distance one bit (apparently I'm living proof that you can "strong-arm" a disc up to at least 350', which I did in the video for which people tried to tear me a new one), it did help me achieve roughly the same max distance with a good deal less strain and effort.

But the pec drill is only one of many ideas and lessons that have helped my game and my driving form. An important concept that the pec drill did not teach me, though it may have been intended to, is how the pull and rotation of a drive should start down in your legs, flow up through your hips and back, and your shoulders should follow all the lower parts of the body. I had to glean that from bits and pieces of conversations on these forums, and with that understanding was better able to conceptualize what "strong arming" is. I had been given the impression that "strong arming" simply describes a throw where power is almost solely generated from a swinging arm; in my case, the term was applicable not because my hips and back weren't active, but because they were following behind my shoulders rather than leading and then pulling on them. In other words, strong-arming does not seem to be an all-or-nothing matter of doing everything wrong -- though you will get that impression from some people in the Technique forums -- but it seems to describe a varying degree of leading with your shoulders and arm rather than letting the shoulders and arm follow your hips and back.

After a few pec drill sessions, I posted a follow-up of my driving form, and actually got some praise for going through the task of "totally rebuilding" my driving form. It didn't honestly feel like I had changed my form much at all between the "before" and "after" videos, but apparently I had changed enough small things that the harsh criticism turned to relative praise and encouragement.

So for me, Beto's pec drill video has been decidedly useful, but has definitely not been enough for me to rely on as a primary practice tool.

 

[garublador]

Hey - sorry for delay haven't had much time to log on lately.

I'd be glad to share my thoughts, whether they're better or not I leave up to critique the same way I critique'd Beto's vid.


The most directly translatable drill that I've used is the towel snap drill. In order to do this drill correctly you have to do what I think are 3 key points of a good "swing" (sorry the US Open is on in the background so I may borrow terms, lol).

To get that really good "snap" sound:
1. Keep the towel close to you
2. Pull through, not around your body
3. Keep the whole arm relaxed. Don't "tug" on the towel as you're pulling through.

The reason I prefer this drill to the right pec drill is because I feel like the right pec drill mentally conditions players to force the hit (early). When you have the disc sitting still at your pec you feel the need to accelerate it quickly by pulling it hard from pec to release. Typically this causes loss in accuracy as well as tensing up your muscles which gets your body out of alignment at that critical moment of the hit.

I also think that actually throwing the disc from that setup is stumbling point because inevitably we gravitate towards focusing on the flight (and thus distance)...and if you begin judging the success of the drill with the distance of the disc then you are inviting other factors that may hurt your development (wind, forcing anny to get those extra feet, etc.)

What I think are the advantages of the towel snap drill for learning acceleration/snap are the fact that it's more directly applicable in terms of the motion of the drill vs the motion of the golf throw. Replacing a disc with a towel achieves the same goal IMO as isolating a segment of the throw but with the added benefit of being more natural.


More later. Tiger and Beau are putting on the practice green right now *cue dramatic sting*

The point of the towel drill is similar to the hammer pound. The towel drill is meant to help you figure out correct timing. If your timing is correct you'll get the towel snap. With the hammer pound drill you're supposed to get the feeling of manipulating the weight of the disc. Either way, once you do either of those drills you have to translate it to actually throwing a disc, which is what the right pec drill is. So neither is a replacement for the right pec drill, they're both drills to help you do the right pec drill correctly.

 

[JTacoma03]

The point of the towel drill is similar to the hammer pound. The towel drill is meant to help you figure out correct timing. If your timing is correct you'll get the towel snap. With the hammer pound drill you're supposed to get the feeling of manipulating the weight of the disc. Either way, once you do either of those drills you have to translate it to actually throwing a disc, which is what the right pec drill is. So neither is a replacement for the right pec drill, they're both drills to help you do the right pec drill correctly.

The right pec drill is an unnecessary step if you can already achieve good towel snap sound. What does it add?

Also Beto curls his arm around the disc when he's doing the right pec and one-step portions which is impossible to replicate and then properly do a reachback. So you end up picking one style (curl-arm) or reach-back when you try and put two and two together.

If it worked for you then I'm happy. No hating here, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[garublador]

The right pec drill is an unnecessary step if you can already achieve good towel snap sound. What does it add?

If you can do it right away then there's no harm in trying, right? You'll just be able to throw it correctly right away and you can move on to the next drill. Although most find that translating from a towel snap to actually getting snap when you throw is not an easy thing to do. If it were the hammer pound drills wouldn't exist. They were made becasue most people have trouble translating from a towel snap to actual snap when you throw.

Also, the point is to start with a "base" power that's just the power you generate from just getting the timing right. From there you add movements (reach back, steps) that add to your power. If your reach back doesn't add any distance then it's not really helping at all and you can find a reach back that does add power. If you only ever reach back then you never really know if it's helping or not.

Also Beto curls his arm around the disc when he's doing the right pec and one-step portions which is impossible to replicate and then properly do a reachback. So you end up picking one style (curl-arm) or reach-back when you try and put two and two together.

If you're trying to emulate what he's doing in the video then you don't understand the intent. He's showing how to build your throw, not showing how to perfectly emulate the movements he's performing.

If it worked for you then I'm happy. No hating here, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I don't think you're hating, you just don't understand the intent of the drills and how to use them. You're basically saying you don't agree with them, but then describe almost the exact same methodology for learning as an alternative.

 

[elnino]

towel speed really helped me understand throwing and got me to throw further.

but it started with pec drill

 

[JTacoma03]

If you can do it right away then there's no harm in trying, right? You'll just be able to throw it correctly right away and you can move on to the next drill. Although most find that translating from a towel snap to actually getting snap when you throw is not an easy thing to do. If it were the hammer pound drills wouldn't exist. They were made becasue most people have trouble translating from a towel snap to actual snap when you throw.

Well as a coach I would say to that player they're not effictively executing the towel snap drill...i.e. they think they're doing it right but they're not fully there yet.

I say this not to belittle, but to encourage further practice. This is because the movement is much more directly related. Towel "snap" sound does directly relate to disc snap because it's the exact same motion. The ONLY difference is the grip...and even then you could go the extra mile and tape up one end of the towel to get more used to a solid gripping surface.

Also, the point is to start with a "base" power that's just the power you generate from just getting the timing right. From there you add movements (reach back, steps) that add to your power. If your reach back doesn't add any distance then it's not really helping at all and you can find a reach back that does add power. If you only ever reach back then you never really know if it's helping or not.

The principle of building a throwing motion with core components is a solid teaching/practicing technique. I am totally for this. I don't doubt that Beto was attempting to do this, I'm not dogging intentions or methodology. What I'm doing is critiquing the drill itself. I disagree that the drill effectively does what it intends to teach.

I use the word "effectively" very purposefully here (and it relates to the quote posted below as well) because it is my opinion that this drill teaches bad habits if followed to a 'T' whilst trying to teach good ones, and IMO that does not make an effective drill.

If you're trying to emulate what he's doing in the video then you don't understand the intent. He's showing how to build your throw, not showing how to perfectly emulate the movements he's performing.

Like I said above, a good drill doesn't teach bad habits - or lets even take "bad" and "good" out of the equation and just say conflicting throwing styles.

I don't think you're hating, you just don't understand the intent of the drills and how to use them. You're basically saying you don't agree with them, but then describe almost the exact same methodology for learning as an alternative.

You're right about 99% of this. You're only wrong about one thing: I understand the drill. I've done the drill. I've taught the drill. I've seen it not work effectively countless times, and I've moved on in my practicing and teaching of the game.

What you're right about is I do agree with a breakdown methodology in order to isolate and cure form issues. What I don't agree with is the right pec drill effectively does this, and further what I don't agree with is that EVERYONE needs to isolate and breakdown BECAUSE it destroys timing, and some people naturally have very good timing and their problem is elsewhere.


Hope this futher clarifies my point. I'm not saying the drill can't be used, I'm just saying I'm a proponent of effective practice and I've nixed this drill because I find it ineffective in the face of other drills/techniques.

 

[garublador]

You're right about 99% of this. You're only wrong about one thing: I understand the drill. I've done the drill. I've taught the drill. I've seen it not work effectively countless times, and I've moved on in my practicing and teaching of the game.

I don't believe that you do becasue of everything you've written about it. While the original intent of the right pec drill was to teach timing, it didn't do a very good job (which I'm sure we agree on), it's now used as a primary way to translate another drill to your throw.

What you're right about is I do agree with a breakdown methodology in order to isolate and cure form issues.

It's not meant to "cure" issues. It's meant to teach timing. It's not a way to fix your throw, it's part of a way to build a throw.

What I don't agree with is the right pec drill effectively does this, and further what I don't agree with is that EVERYONE needs to isolate and breakdown BECAUSE it destroys timing, and some people naturally have very good timing and their problem is elsewhere.

If your problem isn't timing then the right pec drill will be easy. You'll just be able to do it and that's it. Timing is the only thing needed to perform the throw from the right pec as intended. If you're relying on some other part of your throw to get correct timing then figuring out how to incorporate that into your right pec throw.

Hope this futher clarifies my point. I'm not saying the drill can't be used, I'm just saying I'm a proponent of effective practice and I've nixed this drill because I find it ineffective in the face of other drills/techniques.

But the drills you've given aren't meant to supercede the right pec drill. That's why it's clear you don't understand it. You haven't given any drills that are meant to do the same thing. You've only given drills that are meant to be done prior to the right pec drill.

The right pec drill was originally meant to teach timing, but everyone admitted that it wasn't horribly effective. The towel snap and some pencil or stick flinging drills were developed that were a bit better, but still not very effective. While the timing is the same, throwing a disc feels way different than snapping a towel or throwing a stick or pencil. The hammer pound drills teach the feeling. So you still either have to translate timing to a feel (towel drill to right pec throw) or a feel to a timing (hammer pound to right pec throw). The hammer pound to right pec throw has shown to be much more effective to many more people. You still have the option to do both as they're quite easy drills to do. Neither method requires totally ignoring the right pec drill, though. There is no reason to do that. If someone isn't getting it and wants to add parts first and come back to it that's fine, but learning to throw from the right pec will only help in the long run.

Given that when you're giving advice remotely to people you will likely never meet, it only makes sense to recommend the most effective teaching methods.

 

[JTacoma03]

Garu, at this point you're arguing semantics and point of view with me, which means that the argument has run its course. Let's agree to disagree and stop this thread.

At this point it's clear there's your point of view on this topic and there's mine and they're not the same, which is fine. You teach your way I'll teach mine. I'll bow out before this turns into an attempt to objectivize a subjective topic. I feel both our positions have been stated and defended clearly, so the OP and any other interested parties have plenty enough subject matter to answer the question posed by the thread.

as long as new blood comes into the game it's good, no matter how they learn.

 

[BENFTS]

So JT, you up for some DG this weekend?

 

[Dookville]

I spent some time using the right pec drill to help build my timing going into the hit. I am only writing from the stand point of a user, not a teacher of the method. I found it to be a check point for me at the time for the stage that I was at in my own game.

It didn't take too many times before I realized that what I was getting from the right pec drill had less to do with that part of my form than it did with what the rest of my body was doing to get to that point. In order for me to get any distance and consistancy on my throw I had to have my body uncoiling from an athletic position to be able to utilize the last bit of the explosion going from the right pec into the hit. It produced some unatural body and hip loading doing it from a standstill, so I found my self concentrating on my upper body turn and how I used my off arm in the swing.

I moved into using a regular runup with the drill after a few times out to keep from falling into any bad habits I felt where affecting me from doing the standstill. It was ugly at first because of doing a full speed runup, but made a lot more sense once I started doing a walkup into the drill. The leg work came first, and felt I had a good grasp on how my feet position was helping me get into place to load my hips with my torso. It really helped me to stay over my feet and stay smooth across the pad and be in position to expload once I hit the right pec portion of the drill.

The last part to come into play for me, and probably the biggest differnece maker for me was the use of a shoulder stall to hold off the upper body uncoiling from the right pec too quickly. I found it import for me to be aware of what my off arm was doing, it was acting like a rudder, or maybe an anchor to hold back my torso until i felt the uncoiling start to work up my body toward a full relase to the hit. DAMN, this crap is hard to write about.

Once incorporating a full reach back, there where all kinds of small adjustments that had to be made to get the timing down during the full runup. I think the addition of the shoulder stall cuased the most difficulty, but I worked through it and found the adjustment for that was for me to be even more over the top of my feet. I also added in a bit of a pro hop later on to keep from binding up and not being able to get my weight to transfer forward on line and get a good front foot turn.

Sorry this was a little long winded, but I find this a little hard to write about and found it much easier to feel my way through when I was doing it. I did find it very beneficial to my game, but as far as teaching it, let alone teach it over the interent, well that may be tougher than the drill itself. It really is a feel thing, and if you aren't the type to be real aware of its use and feel what its doing to you and where it is leading you, you're fusched. I can see this drill driving people nuts. I think if I had started using this drill when I had first started playing, I wouldn't have gottten it.

I still use the drill motion when standing on the end of the tee pad, habitually. I also use the towel drill before I start a round to warm up and get feel. When standing in postition before the runup I feel my self flicking my wrist liking a mini hammer drill and then load my wrist and go. The drills all have a purpose for me, but mostly they just pointed me in a direction to where my body picked up on the feel.

This was just me, your pleasure may vary.

 

[JTacoma03]

So JT, you up for some DG this weekend?

Working

I've been working so much I haven't played in 2 weeks :gross:

 

[Dookville]

Is this where this thread ends.....bummer.