Ledgestone Insurance Open

[onemilemore]

Ok, y'all got me a bit worked up here for a few reasons. No, not the #provisionalgate, and not the quality of the courses. Those are all fine and dandy for you guys to argue about, I've gotta podcast to discuss that on

2 things.
1. Terry HELPING out Barham on a hole? Did anyone REALLY think that was inappropriate? If so, you are an idiot and should go back and watch the video. Terry didn't tell him WHERE it went out. Terry pointed out that the flag he saw was simply marking the "Circle 2" spot and NOT where he went out. He didn't want Barham to play from an incorrect spot. Nikko actually stepped up and told him where it went out on his approach. And anyone that thinks Terry should just be a passive observer is a goofball. IF Terry truly did see where a disc had gone out of bounds, then he has every right to tell a player. Because ultimately it is up to the group to make the final call.

2. Social media. Are people REALLY complaining that they couldn't find information to stream the event this week? All the links were posted here on the FIRST page. They were posted on Reddit as well. I posted them on the ProTour and SmashBoxx's Facebook page. And on TOP of all of that, we are LIVE in 4 different places all at once. So in CASE you are not subscribed to one of the 2 YouTube Pages, you HOPEFULLY "like" one of the FaceBook pages.

Sorry if you can't find it on the 2 largest disc golf forums, FaceBook, or YouTube. And if you didn't know that the Ledgestone was going on, then you are slightly living under a rock. Maybe I will have people play for a service where I come to there house and type in the link on their computers for them. There was no more social media for Majestic than there was for Ledgestone. I think that Ledgestone was overshadowed by Worlds this year and how quickly the turn around was.

I am not going to deny that the DGWT does a better job during their events with social media such as Instagram and FB. They also have a crew of 20 people for their events. More power to them. They are killing it with that stuff. They are also not providing a solid live broadcast. Instead they rely on Avery's cell phone FB live feed. And that seems to work adequately for them, and I am happy they do it because I enjoy watching. It is surprisingly relaxing watching live disc golf and not being in charge of anything for me.

Ok? On to other things. Did people like the hole graphics that I had up during the Tee-shots? I tried out a new thing and wanted to know people's opinions. And after reading like 22 pages on this thread, if it is one thing there is NO shortage of, its opinions.

The bolded part is where you nailed it. I think a lot of people were still recovering from last week.

And just remember, we know how hard you and Terry work, and we all appreciate it. When we criticize the Pro Tour or World Tour or any other organization here, we aren't criticizing the people behind it. We're simply giving our feedback as the target audience for ways we see that everyone can improve. Ultimately that is how all of this is going to grow, by listening to feedback and responding. Pro Tour has already done that by boosting social media, but it might have just been a little drowned out this weekend coming off Worlds.

 

[prerube]

There is a video on Dude Clothing's Facebook page. Looks like the guy decided to empty his entire bag trying to hit a long putt. Seems like he was fed up and just decided "to he!! with it".

www.facebook.com/DudeClothingAustralia

Its multiple rule violations, but most specifically Section 3.3 B (13) of the Competition Manual which is "deliberately seeking to manipulate ones player rating through intentional misplay or withdrawal".

tanking (adding unnecessary throws in order to inflate a round score) is grounds for 888 score which means as a Pro he will receive an 888 will get a 5 point rating deduction in the first ratings update after that event gets officially reported and that deduction will continue until the ratings update at least 6 months later.

Its was a pathetic attempt to cover up a poor round in my opinion.

 

[gcr_russell]

I hated your live coverage because it was so well done compared to years past that I didnt nap the last two weeks between worlds and Ledgestone. As a single dad who works bizarre and late hours I need those naps.

It was a real pleasure to watch, and all the aspects of production have just amped up over and over in their feel of professionalism lately. Thank You! Hope you got a few beers with my donation!

 

[brutalbrutus]

The only video I've seen of this tournament so far is that stupid re-tee situation on an even stupider hole. This tournament is a joke.

This is why GBO got NT status instead of this tournament, for anyone still wondering about such things. Throwing over a baseball field? I honestly feel bad for the pros who would never play a gimmicky tournament like this, but are effectively shoehorned into doing so because of the payout.

I am pretty sure I read somewhere on here before that the Ledgestone and BHMO rotate NT status every year...

 

[JoakimBL]

I already did. Provisionals to save time have to meet the criteria as listed in 804.06.B.1. Optional re-throw is not among the listed criteria. Choosing to throw an optional re-throw over-rules whether the previous throw is OB or not, whether it is lost or not, or whether it missed a mando or not. What would the criteria be to prompt a provisional optional re-throw and what would be the objective determination over whether to play from the original throw or the re-throw?

An optional re-throw is not a recourse for a rules dispute either. You are never disallowed from throwing one, so one should never be in doubt as to whether one is allowed to be thrown.

Except that is exactly what he was in this scenario, so that is why you are wrong.

 

[araytx]

Except that is exactly what he was in this scenario, so that is why you are wrong.

Not the way I saw it go down. Paul wanted to re-tee INSTEAD OF going to the DZ. Paul thought he could. The majority decision of the card said he could. The CARD wasn't unsure, and Paul wan't unsure. The "chatter" about being unsure came from outside of the CARD -- fans, gallery, other players who'd finished their round, media, etc.

 

[JoakimBL]

Didn't mean he was in doubt, but that he was diasallowed from throwing an optional rethrow. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[araytx]

Didn't mean he was in doubt, but that he was diasallowed from throwing an optional rethrow. Sorry for the confusion.

ok. Then what is the justification for disallowing optional re-throw? The caddy book did not say that.

 

[jvphobic]

Bitter, much?
Jeez. I know how bad it sucks to do a ton of work for free and get **** on for the hard work but I didnt really see what point your rant was supposed to bring across.

I guess Im the exception here, but I find live disc golf to be insufferable. The hard work of a select few (who we should all remember are basically doing this for free) isn't going to change that. With a casual sport like disc golf, live coverage will never beat out going outside and actually playing. Just how it is.

I only care about Ledgestone for the fundraiser discs.

No, I am NOT bitter. I was confused. We do NOT do this for free, we are starting a business and getting paid (very little... but whatever) for what we do. That is why you don't see us pushing our support page on the broadcast, it would be tacky to get paid and still ask for support. This was NOT a "woah is me" post. If you don't like live disc golf, I am totally fine with that. That is not what the conversation was about. There is almost always post-produced stuff for you guys.

My discussion was about the social media aspect of the event and people claiming, "I didn't even know it was going on." or "I couldn't find where it was."

The YouTube numbers are all inclusive of embeds. But, I don't think that Steve Dodge continued that program past the first event.

 

[JoakimBL]

ok. Then what is the justification for disallowing optional re-throw? The caddy book did not say that.

I don't know, ask the guy who made the ruling. I'm just disputing JC's claim, that you cannot throw an optional rethrow provisionally, as you are never disallowed one. What happened here, right or wrong, was exactly what JC claims cannot/should not happen. The player is in doubt whether or not he is allowed to throw retee (optional rethrow) or not. He does so provisionally. He is later told, that he wasn't allowed to do so. Had he not thrown the throw provisionally, he would have incurred a practice throw penalty.

If you want to be pedantic about not throwing an optional rethrow provisionally, he could have called the DZ throw the provisional throw, in case the rethrow was not allowed. In a sense, both throws are provisionals, depending the outcome of the TD's ruling

 

[sprintermatt]

I hope no precedent is set that a person is penalized by calling for a provisional when a hole has confusing irregular rules. A player should ALWAYS be allowed a provisional. PERIOD. If you are wise enough to realize "wait, perhaps I'm playing this wrong. I'll play it out both ways, then I'm SURE I played it right instead of finding out that I played it wrong later." ESPECIALLY on circus courses, then we are setting an awful precedent. If you don't want the pace of golf to slow to a crawl, MAKE THE COURSES PLAY ACCORDING TO REGULAR PDGA RULES.

 

[ToddL]

Did people like the hole graphics that I had up during the Tee-shots? I tried out a new thing and wanted to know people's opinions. And after reading like 22 pages on this thread, if it is one thing there is NO shortage of, its opinions.

I thought they were excellent. I mostly appreciated the hole information - map, par, distance. The graphic with the scores in the upper left was small and hard to read when my stream switched to lower quality. The player profile (picture, GIR stats) could go either way for me.

 

[araytx]

I don't know, ask the guy who made the ruling. I'm just disputing JC's claim, that you cannot throw an optional rethrow provisionally, as you are never disallowed one. What happened here, right or wrong, was exactly what JC claims cannot/should not happen. The player is in doubt whether or not he is allowed to throw retee (optional rethrow) or not. He does so provisionally. He is later told, that he wasn't allowed to do so. Had he not thrown the throw provisionally, he would have incurred a practice throw penalty.

If you want to be pedantic about not throwing an optional rethrow provisionally, he could have called the DZ throw the provisional throw, in case the rethrow was not allowed. In a sense, both throws are provisionals, depending the outcome of the TD's ruling

OK, I see. But my question is (remains), are you talking about what's right or what happened? I'll agree with you that according to what happened here your response might be on target, but what both JC and I have been contending all along is that whoever ruled in that case ruled incorrectly. We believe that the rules clearly state in 803.02 B that optional re-throw maybe used at any time.

Also, how do you reconcile "a player CAN throw an optional re-throw provisionally" with a player who might want to do that after every hole? He says, I get to throw a provisional any time I want to (at least according to some people on this thread), and his cardmates say, "but the disc isn't lost, it's in the middle of the fairway, and there's no OB or special rules on this hole." And he says, but I can call a provisional optional re-throw any time I want to. We've contended all along, that the issue was the "provisional" optional re-throw. I believe it's a slippery slope and will open a can of worms if that's continued to be allowed. I guarantee that if I start off slow in a tournament and don't feel "warmed-up", I could get around the practice throw rule by calling for "a provisional optional re-throw" when I know for sure that my disc will be found inbounds.

I hope no precedent is set that a person is penalized by calling for a provisional when a hole has confusing irregular rules. A player should ALWAYS be allowed a provisional. PERIOD. If you are wise enough to realize "wait, perhaps I'm playing this wrong. I'll play it out both ways, then I'm SURE I played it right instead of finding out that I played it wrong later." ESPECIALLY on circus courses, then we are setting an awful precedent. If you don't want the pace of golf to slow to a crawl, MAKE THE COURSES PLAY ACCORDING TO REGULAR PDGA RULES.

You and I are gonna agree on a lot. #1 --Why not just play by the rule book rules? I say YEAH! LET's DO THAT! I was one who raved against all of these "special rules," especially the throw & distance island holes. I found out from comments after doing this video on your options after throwing OB, that nearly every TD who uses a drop zone does so with the intention of limiting a player's options. I had younger/newer players who commented that they had never seen anything except a forced drop zone. I distinctly remember going over the rules for a fountain hole we have at the Veterans Park Open and it speaks to the what I call now "optional drop zone" for throws that go OB. Players would ask me, "what does that mean? what's an optional drop zone?" I'd reply, "it means you have all three options if you go OB." And they'd say, "what three options?" Imagine my perplexity. Or they'd say, "is it on any shot or just the tee shot?" I had to re-iterate that on this hole we have an optional drop zone if you go OB on any throw -- meaning you can use it if you choose, or you can re-throw from the previous lie or you may go to the last spot inbounds -- thrower's choice. These kinds of things led me to believe/know that most TDs use the drop zone to force players out of having the options! Often times because they 'fall in love' with a certain design and won't redesign it in such a way to have special rules.

#2 -- When rules are written in a confusing way, you're right. A player should have the right to play a provisional. But if the players on the card agree he's playing it right, then there's no need. If these special rules weren't written, then there'd also be no need.

 

[DiscFifty]

Was hoping Nate Doss would keep it going, but it looks like he just ran out of gas. Still..he has been playing awesome. McBeth was incredible, really fun to watch him never slow down.

Awesome coverage, thanks to everyone who made it happen. Still some funky camera work, always strange to me to see a putt or approach shot and not have the player and the basket in the frame. Maybe that's just me though.

 

[Consult20]

My thoughts when I look at UDisc scores and see a "40" on hole 14 by Jake Palmer.......

any one got an accurate story for this one.

His round is listed at 114, by my count he shot a 112! Unless he got a 2 stroke penalty for scoring his card wrong on top of everything else...:doh:

Does anyone know why Jake Palmer's final round is listed at 114? His card adds up to 112, just trying to figure out why the discrepancy.

 

[gsw_03]

I thought the coverage all weekend was outstanding - thank you to everyone involved.

I watched the entirety of Saturday and Sunday's rounds, and the stream looked fantastic on my 50" TV. I really liked the addition of the graphics, which made it look like a professional broadcast. The wife even said, "You're telling me this is a disc golf tournament?? I thought you were watching golf all this time!" :clap:

 

[jvphobic]

I thought the coverage all weekend was outstanding - thank you to everyone involved.

I watched the entirety of Saturday and Sunday's rounds, and the stream looked fantastic on my 50" TV. I really liked the addition of the graphics, which made it look like a professional broadcast. The wife even said, "You're telling me this is a disc golf tournament?? I thought you were watching golf all this time!" :clap:

Thanks! That is a very high quality compliment. I truly appreciate it. I am glad those are the 2 days you watched, cause Thurs and Friday were decent but Northwood park only has about half of it covered in cellular signal.

And I would be remiss if I didn't thank UDisc for making a LOT of those graphics happen. Thanks to their features a lot of those graphics are possible.

 

[udisc-josh]

Does anyone know why Jake Palmer's final round is listed at 114? His card adds up to 112, just trying to figure out why the discrepancy.

Added up his scores wrong. Happened to a lot of people this event with all the higher scores. I just added a new indicator on the site (p) for any scorecard penalties.

 

[august dupree]

Why are the unofficial round ratings for round 3 so low? I mean they are like, really low. Something doesn't seem right.

 

[udisc-josh]

Why are the unofficial round ratings for round 3 so low? I mean they are like, really low. Something doesn't seem right.

My guess is they accidentally used Northwood instead of Eureka for the round.