Ledgestone Insurance Open

[biscoe]

You say the courses are gimmicky. Great, I'm not seeing it, possibly it doesn't come through to me. Will you take the time to give some hole specifics?

I'll take "basket within 3 feet of the water" for $500 Alex.

 

[Steve West]

I'll take "basket within 3 feet of the water" for $500 Alex.

But only on one side.

 

[esdubya]

Calling a course design element a "gimmick" is a total cop-out. Sometimes something works and sometimes it doesn't. There are much more intelligent ways to express opinion than saying "I hate it" or "I don't like it" or "it's a gimmick".

 

[lyleoross]

I'll take "basket within 3 feet of the water" for $500 Alex.

Know the hole! There are several holes at DeLa with full drop offs into the canyon five feet from the basket. Would those be considered a gimmick? My favorite hole at now defunct Tom Bass park had a long fairway with trees interspersed (prob 380 feet) with a left dogleg up a mound to a basket perched three feet from a drop off to a wet creek. It was a bear of a hole and required skill and risk management.

While I might not call the three foot hole a great hole, I'd not call it a gimmick, but I can accept that assessment. On the other hand a 350 foot hole with one tree located to eliminate the hyser angle doesn't strike me as a significantly better hole. I admit that's my personal feeling.

More?

 

[lyleoross]

But only on one side.

I know I can give you a hard time. So if it was three feet on all sides would that be okay?

 

[jvphobic]

I love it. People that don't think USDGC is as "gimmicky" as Ledgestone. You are either ignorant or an Innova apologist.

Ledgestone has a hole that is 3 feet from water. vs. USDCG which has a hole that is 5 feet from a parking lot (peninsula on hole 13, 888). But for USDGC it is ok because they put up a small barrier so you wouldn't easily roll OB???

Ledgestone has a hole where you throw over a baseball diamond. USDGC has a hole where you throw over a parking lot.

Ledgestone has tight fairways for stroke and distance. USDGC has tight fairways where they played stroke and distance.

Ledgestone has an island greens. USDGC has an island greens.

Ledgestone has a bridge you throw off of. USDGC has a bamboo clowns mouth you have to throw through.

USDGC didn't like players going over the water, arguably one of the coolest shots on that course, so they made an arbitrary mando on hole 5 that players need to go around.

It was USDGC that set the standard for different rules on different holes. Stroke and Distance, hazzard, OB, elevated baskets, Island Greens, horseshoe shaped holes, triple mandos, and Drop Zones. Winthrop University has better aesthetics but frankly both courses are about the same "gimmicky".

The USDGC caddy guide has 1 page JUST to explain the "ground rules" and 2 pages of FAQ for the course. Explaining how to play things.

I enjoy watching USDGC and think it is a fine course (minus some dumb rules). But get off your high horse if you think that it is any sort of standard to set.

Trust me, I have spoken to enough players off the record to tell you that they mostly think USDGC is a joke of an event. A very prestigious and well paying joke.

 

[lyleoross]

I'll take "basket within 3 feet of the water" for $500 Alex.

BTW, bisco not only addressed the issue with a direct example, he poked fun at me in an indirect and polite way. Niiiice!

 

[Dana]

I just watched the entire #6 debacle again. Effing hilarious. The entire affair occurred with no more professionalism, authority or clarity than if they were playing MA3 at a local, rinky-dink C-Tier.

Not once did anyone produce a caddy book. Not once did anyone produce a PDGA rule book. Not once did an official marshal or TD take control of the situation. Not once was there any organized & fair discussion among the entire card about how to proceed.

Steve Dodge was by far the most authoritative sounding voice during the incident, but it wasn't until later that I found out that he, in no way, was a TD for the tournament. So what, exactly, was he doing injecting himself into the discussion? I liked especially how he kept referring, with great confidence, to the "course director", whatever that is. This episode screamed out for the "TOURNAMENT director", not a "course director" or whatever role Steve Dodge was playing either.

Then someone showed up and produced a phone, claiming to have the word handed down from a TD, apparently. Then whatever "ruling" this phantom TD handed down was promptly subjected to an actual game of telephone until it trickled down to the players. Pretty comical stuff. I bet Jussi was laughing his ass off watching.

I feel badly for Nikko. Nikko had every right to feel aggrieved, but he's also to blame. He should have insisted to speak to an official TD to clarify what precise shot McBeth was playing before they proceeded. Instead, he decided to throw up his hands and whine about it for 30 minutes, plainly cursing on camera, wrecking what was to that point an excellent round and probably wrecking his tournament and further cementing his reputation, in the eyes of everyone who was watching, for being rash and unpredictable. Poor guy just can't figure it out.

Time out. I believe that I can help provide some insight and facts on the situation.

I was following the card (Assistant Tournament Director). As soon as McBeth asked if he could re-throw instead of going to the drop zone, we went straight to the tee sign and caddy book. Both said proceed to drop zone, but under normal PDGA rules, you always have the option to re-throw from the previous lie.

He didn't like the drop zone*, so he wanted to throw from the tee again. I picked up my phone and called the Mike Krupicka, the Course TD, to confirm that we did have a waiver to force players to the drop zone. Mike confirmed and that is when I approached the drop zone and passed along the ruling.

*When Paul had played the course earlier in the week, the ropes were tight on the drop zone, making it a tough run up from there. The ropes had been moved to make room for a soccer game. When we were made aware of the drop zone situation (by Paul and others), we (I personally) went and fixed it.

I understand the complexity and confusing nature of the situation and I take responsibility for not making sure players were better informed on special course rules. I believe Paul did the right thing by calling a provisional, even though the tee shot is infinitely harder than the drop zone shot. I'm glad he decided to head to the drop zone instead of throwing a few more tee shots.

 

[Dana]

I love it. People that don't think USDGC is as "gimmicky" as Ledgestone. You are either ignorant or an Innova apologist.

Ledgestone has a hole that is 3 feet from water. vs. USDCG which has a hole that is 5 feet from a parking lot (peninsula on hole 13, 888). But for USDGC it is ok because they put up a small barrier so you wouldn't easily roll OB???

Ledgestone has a hole where you throw over a baseball diamond. USDGC has a hole where you throw over a parking lot.

Ledgestone has tight fairways for stroke and distance. USDGC has tight fairways where they played stroke and distance.

Ledgestone has an island greens. USDGC has an island greens.

Ledgestone has a bridge you throw off of. USDGC has a bamboo clowns mouth you have to throw through.

USDGC didn't like players going over the water, arguably one of the coolest shots on that course, so they made an arbitrary mando on hole 5 that players need to go around.

It was USDGC that set the standard for different rules on different holes. Stroke and Distance, hazzard, OB, elevated baskets, Island Greens, horseshoe shaped holes, triple mandos, and Drop Zones. Winthrop University has better aesthetics but frankly both courses are about the same "gimmicky".

The USDGC caddy guide has 1 page JUST to explain the "ground rules" and 2 pages of FAQ for the course. Explaining how to play things.

I enjoy watching USDGC and think it is a fine course (minus some dumb rules). But get off your high horse if you think that it is any sort of standard to set.

Trust me, I have spoken to enough players off the record to tell you that they mostly think USDGC is a joke of an event. A very prestigious and well paying joke.

JV for the win.

 

[lyleoross]

I love it. People that don't think USDGC is as "gimmicky" as Ledgestone. You are either ignorant or an Innova apologist.

Ledgestone has a hole that is 3 feet from water. vs. USDCG which has a hole that is 5 feet from a parking lot (peninsula on hole 13, 888). But for USDGC it is ok because they put up a small barrier so you wouldn't easily roll OB???

Ledgestone has a hole where you throw over a baseball diamond. USDGC has a hole where you throw over a parking lot.

Ledgestone has tight fairways for stroke and distance. USDGC has tight fairways where they played stroke and distance.

Ledgestone has an island greens. USDGC has an island greens.

Ledgestone has a bridge you throw off of. USDGC has a bamboo clowns mouth you have to throw through.

USDGC didn't like players going over the water, arguably one of the coolest shots on that course, so they made an arbitrary mando on hole 5 that players need to go around.

It was USDGC that set the standard for different rules on different holes. Stroke and Distance, hazzard, OB, elevated baskets, Island Greens, horseshoe shaped holes, triple mandos, and Drop Zones. Winthrop University has better aesthetics but frankly both courses are about the same "gimmicky".

The USDGC caddy guide has 1 page JUST to explain the "ground rules" and 2 pages of FAQ for the course. Explaining how to play things.

I enjoy watching USDGC and think it is a fine course (minus some dumb rules). But get off your high horse if you think that it is any sort of standard to set.

Trust me, I have spoken to enough players off the record to tell you that they mostly think USDGC is a joke of an event. A very prestigious and well paying joke.

Ouch! Remind me never to get you hot at me.

 

[lyleoross]

Okay, I'm slower than most, is this really a Discraft vs Innova thing? Naw, can't be. That belongs on the Conspiracy thread.

 

[ToddL]

I love it. People that don't think USDGC is as "gimmicky" as Ledgestone. You are either ignorant or an Innova apologist.

Ledgestone has a hole that is 3 feet from water. vs. USDCG which has a hole that is 5 feet from a parking lot (peninsula on hole 13, 888). But for USDGC it is ok because they put up a small barrier so you wouldn't easily roll OB???

Ledgestone has a hole where you throw over a baseball diamond. USDGC has a hole where you throw over a parking lot.

Ledgestone has tight fairways for stroke and distance. USDGC has tight fairways where they played stroke and distance.

Ledgestone has an island greens. USDGC has an island greens.

Ledgestone has a bridge you throw off of. USDGC has a bamboo clowns mouth you have to throw through.

USDGC didn't like players going over the water, arguably one of the coolest shots on that course, so they made an arbitrary mando on hole 5 that players need to go around.

It was USDGC that set the standard for different rules on different holes. Stroke and Distance, hazzard, OB, elevated baskets, Island Greens, horseshoe shaped holes, triple mandos, and Drop Zones. Winthrop University has better aesthetics but frankly both courses are about the same "gimmicky".

The USDGC caddy guide has 1 page JUST to explain the "ground rules" and 2 pages of FAQ for the course. Explaining how to play things.

I enjoy watching USDGC and think it is a fine course (minus some dumb rules). But get off your high horse if you think that it is any sort of standard to set.

Trust me, I have spoken to enough players off the record to tell you that they mostly think USDGC is a joke of an event. A very prestigious and well paying joke.

The mando on hole 5 at USDGC forces you to throw over the water. Playing the long way around the trees is now illegal. http://usdgc.com/?p=763

 

[jvphobic]

Okay, I'm slower than most, is this really a Discraft vs Innova thing? Naw, can't be. That belongs on the Conspiracy thread.

I hope that this isn't the case. This isn't 1998 anymore.

 

[TimSyl]

Ouch! Remind me never to get you hot at me.

Haven't played the course, but have watched the past couple years. Nephew and his buddies played this year. They said it was very difficult. They said nothing about it being unfair or gimmicky. I personally would prefer a Moraine type course.

 

[jvphobic]

You are correct on Hole 5. My bad, I had it backwards in my head. Thank you for the correction.

 

[lyleoross]

Does anyone remember the clown's mouth. Two trees with a board across it. I still remember the pros complaining about that hole.

 

[lyleoross]

Haven't played the course, but have watched the past couple years. Nephew and his buddies played this year. They said it was very difficult. They said nothing about it being unfair or gimmicky. I personally would prefer a Moraine type course.

Unfortunately, there is only one Moraine. Never played, but love watching others on it!

 

[lyleoross]

As a point of remembrance, if you go to the old PDGA Discussion board, there were numerous threads concerning USDGC and how the pros hated it. Specifically concerning the clown's mouth. It's gained it's current reputation through the hard work of HD and his team and a desire to build a rigorous experience. Much of what is being said about Ledgstone reminds me of early conversations about USDGC. By my measure, building an event of this size and scope in five years is quite an achievement. Is it perfect? I refer you to Mr. Stokely's comments from last year. He complemented the event while acknowledging room for growth. When I read articles on the Ledgstone site discussing openly working with the PDGA to make the courses better, I have to consider that the managers of this event are working, like HD did, to make a world class event.

 

[araytx]

Lol. Yeah, I made a mistake. You're correct, there's no such thing as rule 803.06. I don't know where I got that rule from. I must have conjured it from the ether or something. I guess there's no such thing as an "optional re-throw rule." Bummer. Seemed like a good rule.

Anyway, thanks for settling my hash.

803.02 B.

 

[Steve West]

I know I can give you a hard time. So if it was three feet on all sides would that be okay?

Worth testing.