OB and lines of Verticality

[CTRobuck]

So I have had the amazing opportunity to work with my city to design our first true 18 hole disc golf course. I have had a couple people question a rule that we have put into place since we are building this course on the same land that the city has baseball fields on. Also, the High School which is the big money here in my rather small East Texas town has their baseball field on this land.

So here is my question. As we partnered with the city, their one concern was discs flying onto the baseball fields while games were going on. By design I worked hard to aim teepads aways from field, however, there are a couple holes where baseball fields could come into play. We told the city to help limit the discs that could make it on the fields we are establishing a rule that any disc that is thrown over the field is ob at the point where it crosses the fence line. Of course if the disc lands on the field it is ob.

What are your thoughts on this? Foot faults are similar in that you break a vertical plane and it is a card call. This rule isn't to penalize big arms, but to keep people from INTENTIONALLY throwing over fields.

Feedback Welcome!!! Constructive feedback that is.....

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Off the top of my head there is a hole which this can happen with given the wind and if you are trying to push 400' for up at birdie vs throw 2' ~300' and a up shot for par.

I am not exactly sure what you are wondering about in the OP but assume just feedback on similar situations? One thing to consider is how often the fields are occupied as some use them for leagues and practices etc while others are just rec like and less trafficked.

Your "rules" will only apply to those who are playing tournament style and as with any mando or designed line you need to consider the "thrower" just out there playing without regard for your rules.

IMO the discs are going to end up in the field no matter what, if there is a chance it can happen.
IF its possible I would even try to put a rule saying the holes are just closed during baseball play and discs cannot be retrieved or something to defer people from testing their luck in the first place assuming this COULD cause an issue with the HS vs DGC

 

[biscoe]

however, there are a couple holes where baseball fields could come into play. We told the city to help limit the discs that could make it on the fields we are establishing a rule that any disc that is thrown over the field is ob at the point where it crosses the fence line. Of course if the disc lands on the field it is ob.

if it "can" come into play it inevitably will... OB or not.

 

[CTRobuck]

Off the top of my head there is a hole which this can happen with given the wind and if you are trying to push 400' for up at birdie vs throw 2' ~300' and a up shot for par.

I am not exactly sure what you are wondering about in the OP but assume just feedback on similar situations? One thing to consider is how often the fields are occupied as some use them for leagues and practices etc while others are just rec like and less trafficked.

Your "rules" will only apply to those who are playing tournament style and as with any mando or designed line you need to consider the "thrower" just out there playing without regard for your rules.

IMO the discs are going to end up in the field no matter what, if there is a chance it can happen.

I am more trying to keep people from intentionally throwing over the field. HUGE arms could potentially throw a huge sky anny over the field. The hole I am talking about is a 500ft par 4 and is designed to throw a RHBH Hyzer or Hyzer flip down the fairway. I know and the city knows that discs could land in the field and that isn't an issue. I was more inquiring about telling people they cannot intentionally throw over these particualr obs (that deal with the baseball field) to try to bring their shot back to the fairway.

I was wondering if this was out of line as far as course design goes to calll it ob if someone intentionally goes over the baseball fields. And, of course it would be a card call, just as whether a disc is sitting in ob or a foot fault.

 

[CTRobuck]

if it "can" come into play it inevitably will... OB or not.

I know, sooner or later a disc will land on the field, that is inevitable. However, by design we aimed teepads away from fields. My thing is just the "intentional" part of throwing over these ob baseball fenses. The course can be easily played without somone trying some crazy shot over the field.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Is there anyway to just block that line off the tee? even with a sign that says no throwing over Baseball Fields? Its really pretty easy to take away a line off the tee and basically a win win for you.

I have seen lots of these rules on courses but very few players actually follow suit.

Is there a way to block that line and force a mando essentially so you cant run perpendicular to the angle of the tee and still take the line?

For me I don't care what direction really the tee faces im looking at how I need to run up to get the line I want so if that line isn't there then its a no brainer to follow the tee design and play it up the gut.

There is a course here on golf course where when you play the gold tees you find many of the lines restricted to the basket and even though the hole is wide open there is really only 1 way to get there or a small window to hit directly off the tee.

 

[CTRobuck]

Is there anyway to just block that line off the tee? even with a sign that says no throwing over Baseball Fields? Its really pretty easy to take away a line off the tee and basically a win win for you.

I have seen lots of these rules on courses but very few players actually follow suit.

Yeah I realize few players always follow the rules. And, yes we have aimed the teepad in a direction that promotes a throw away from the fields. I would also say that 90% of players wouldn't throw the shot that intentionally goes over the field. It will be in the rules, and at some point we may have to put in some kind of Mando to help if it gets out of hand.

In designing the course I tried to limit my number of mandos because I didn't want the course to get to quirky.

 

[bradharris]

1. Just because you're establishing the rule doesn't mean every player will follow it. Casuals will always play by their own set of rules which may or may not match yours.

2. Just making the field OB is not going to deter people. Plenty of players will want to try to clear the field if there's advantage to be gained. It's risk/reward. Players will opt for high risk if the reward is high enough.

3. My home course used to start behind a baseball field. It was a big problem. While it was not particularly hard to avoid the field, it was definitely in play. When a game was going on, that can really get in your head. As a general rule, it's a bad idea to have any sort of off-limits area like that even remotely close to coming into play. Try to design holes that have players throwing away from the field rather than along a fence line or towards it.

4. Aiming the teepad is not effective. Players can still throw off the side of it if they want.

 

[JC17393]

Mandos are what you're looking for here if you want to at least attempt to prevent players from throwing over the field. I'd still make the field OB, but I'd put a mando in somewhere that forces players to throw away from the field as well. But that's still not enough. The sign at the tee and perhaps at the mando as well need to be clear and descriptive.

So many courses will just mark an OB area or a mando on a sign with no explanation. That is only going to impact the players that know enough about the rules to know what OB or mandos are. If you include a description of the mando rule, particular noting that discs must pass it on the correct side and there are penalties for not doing so, you're going to get more compliance. Not 100% because like Brad says, people will ignore the rules if they don't care enough, but a lot of times ignorance of OB and mandos are due to people simply not knowing what they mean. If they did, they'd comply. And also with the mention of penalties, you might get the casual players who are ultra-competitive amongst their friends to enforce the rule on each other more often.

I put a sign out on a tee on my course that warned against vandalizing the course, including breaking branches and bushes, saying that it was an automatic 2-stroke penalty. I've overheard more than one conversation since where one player has warned another player to not bend/break a branch or he'd stroke him. Put a smile on my face to hear it. Some people get it...once they're told what to get.

 

[mreynolds24]

Any chance of putting up some type of netting or planting tree(s) to block lines to the field? Another 'fix' could be to just put up some type of pole or tree out away from the ball field and call it a mando to force players not to throw toward the ballpark but instead around the mando, which will take the aim away from the fields.

Edit: ^Beat me to it

 

[CTRobuck]

Here is the Hole I am talking about. There is a fence line between the field and the course. It is ok if someone accidentally throws and it ends up a bad throw that lands on the field. Again it's just the intentional throws. Anyway, I feel that we gave plenty of space to the right and aimed the box in a direction that will help stop this, but of course, will never fully prevent this.

For course flow purposes we went with this design. Because it ends back at hole 1 and the parking lot.

Also it is a 500ft par 4, this is an old sign before we updated them.

 

[JC17393]

That looks bad. Especially if it is a 500 foot hole. If that's what the hole looks like, why not shorten it by about half and put the tee somewhere around centerfield. At least that way you're truly aiming away from the field rather than alongside it. If you're worried about total distance of the course, you could stretch 17 out a bit, put it nearer to where 18's tee is on that map.

 

[CTRobuck]

That looks bad. Especially if it is a 500 foot hole. If that's what the hole looks like, why not shorten it by about half and put the tee somewhere around centerfield. At least that way you're truly aiming away from the field rather than alongside it. If you're worried about total distance of the course, you could stretch 17 out a bit, put it nearer to where 18's tee is on that map.

When you stand on the teepad the distance between the trees and the field is wider than it looks in the picture. The true line should be drawn a little further right. 17 is an amazing peninsula style hole that I would not change. We thought about making it shorter, but as an 18 hole I din't want an easy birdie, especially if you have 2 people tied with 1 left. The sign does make it look a little more tight than it truly is.

 

[CTRobuck]

There is a Flag Pole in deep center field that I may use as a mando, as suggested, that would probably help the intentional throws.

 

[DavidSauls]

Do I read you right---that you're not just talking about making the field O.B., but declaring a shot O.B. if it flies over the field, even if it lands outside the field?

If so, in addition to all the other drawbacks people have mentioned, you have additional issues of (1) getting a rules waiver for tournament play and (2) subsequent arguments when a disc barely crosses the fence, or maybe almost crosses the fence, depending on whose vision you trust.

If not, nevermind.

 

[mashnut]

Like a few others have said, mandos and OBs work to somewhat avoid issues like this in a tournament or league, but for casual play they do very little. The least accurate players are also often the least likely to bother paying attention to your mando or OB signage, and they'll happily throw over or into the field, hop the fence and throw their next shot from the middle of center field. The suggestions about making sure there's a tree or pole or something that takes away that line off the tee are the only real way of preventing most of those issues.

 

[DavidSauls]

That looks bad. Especially if it is a 500 foot hole. If that's what the hole looks like, why not shorten it by about half and put the tee somewhere around centerfield. At least that way you're truly aiming away from the field rather than alongside it. If you're worried about total distance of the course, you could stretch 17 out a bit, put it nearer to where 18's tee is on that map.

Either way, this is the safest answer.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I like the intent of the rule: encouraging players to stay away from the ball fields completely seems likely to result in fewer discs actually landing on the field and/or interfering with any activity taking place there, leading to a more harmonius co-existence between the two activities in the park.

However, as others have pointed out, during casual rounds, people will do what they want, so if they want to throw a hyzer line out over the field, the rule's not gonna stop 'em. Nonetheless, I doesn't hurt to post it as a rule on the course rules or say so on the tee sign.

Additionally, in competitive play, it could prove problematic to the point of nightmarish, as determining whether or not a disc flew completely over OB airspace at some point in it's flight could be a very difficult call to make, especially from a couple hundered feet away, and can vary greatly based on one's physical perspective.

 

[CTRobuck]

We are definitely going to be scheduling our sanctioned tourneys around the baseball schedule so we can just call it ob if you land in it. I was just asking if a vertical line for intentional throws was legit? In casual rounds if players throw over the fence that is their business. Hopefully we will be able to promote throwing away from it, however, I do get the fact that some will throw over. I did run all this by Parks and Rec and they were ok with the design. It is definitely fluid as far as if it becomes a huge issue we can work with the parks and rec to move the Teepad in the future.

 

[InnocentCrook]

I just pulled the park up on the Texas GIS page. At it's most narrow, the fairway is 100' wide.

Is this fairly close to what is planned?