On the edge of professional Disc Golf

[scarpfish]

I think most of you miss a key element to all this bitching and moaning...disc golf as a whole from top pro to brand new bag full of warp speed drivers newbie, is not taken seriously by 99.999999999999999995% of human beings that don't play.

I quit caring about what that crowd thought a long time ago. I don't take their hobbies seriously either. If I did take them seriously, I'd probably be doing them too.

 

[NDABRUSH]

it helps if you read more than just one post, my friend, it really does

i will not lead your horse to water and i sure as hell won't make it drink

I am not your friend and I don't have a horse.

 

[jaos]

Disc golf needs to be seen more as a competitive sport.

It was very interesting to see Spin TV's and Finnish Broadcasting Company Yle's versions of the European Open final this summer. (Spin TV's clips were made by lgcm8 and Central Coast Disc Golf, Yle did last three holes live.)

Lgcm8's camera angles were a lot better and and CCDG's commentary was more well-informed. But there was one huge difference: the focus of Yle's broadcast was clearly on who was going to win it, while CCDG's commentary barely mentioned it. On the last hole, when Feldberg had to make a putt to tie the score, CCDG's guys almost didn't mention it at all. DGPlanet has had a bit of the same problem.

I mean no disrespect to CCDG, they provide the best Youtube commentary and I watch all their clips. But clearly Youtube broadcasters miss the whole drama of competition, which disc golf also has.

Here's Yle's broadcast (in Finnish): http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1950263

 

[DavidSauls]

In favor of bringing somthing else to light other then pay to play and subustance use I think that looking at the tournaments themselves. The big tournament that most disc golfers look forward to it is the pdga world championship. I love that it is in the US and for a long time it made sense beacuse of the large ammount of disc golfers in the United States that play pro but I think that it might be time to send it over to European countries for a year or so. European countries seem to treat disc golf with more respect on the non disc golfer side. I remember being told that like the usdgc was going to be on ESPN2 back in '08 or '09 and nothing ever became of that or at least to my knowledge. So maybe by sending the world championship and let it get some tv coverage over seas might make it more pleasing to the North American networks to show a few larger events beaver state fling, the memorial or the usdgc to name few.

I gould be wrong on some of this ^ but I hope it is at least understood what I am trying to get at.

Next might be the pay outs on the majors and the national tour. I think that by charging more and paying less spots over all (lets say the top 10-15 in each division, or what have you) might make it more of a choice of permanent income for some golfers. I know that is not totaly fair for some of the new pro players to play the event but if the dont want to play they dont have to.



This is more of a question... what is sooo wrong with having or trying to get companys like new balance, champion, under armor or monster or rockstar energy drinks from being a title sponsor of some of the larger events? I just dont understand the whole it needs to be a small company or discgolf related company. As far as I can tell money in the pot is money in the pot! It does not matter if it is from a disc golfers construction company, discraft, innova or PepsiCo!

Good questions.

The answers are in financial realities. Most of the money in the pro payouts comes from the entries of lower-finishing pros. You don't want to price the mass of them out of paying for the experience, or make it less likely for them to cash by moving up the cash line, or move the event overseas where they won't go. Also, Worlds is not placed anywhere; communities bid to host them. And, because of the finances, few want to host Pro Worlds.

As for the major companies, it's been tried. But no major company---or minor one, for that matter---is going to put much money into a venture with so few spectators. After all, sponsorship is really advertising, and they're looking for as many eyeballs as possible. It's highly doubtful that anyone will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the belief that, with the right production and promotion, they'll generate so many spectators that they'll recoup their expenses in additional sales.

At least, at this time.

 

[DavidSauls]

Disc golf needs to be seen more as a competitive sport.

It was very interesting to see Spin TV's and Finnish Broadcasting Company Yle's versions of the European Open final this summer. (Spin TV's clips were made by lgcm8 and Central Coast Disc Golf, Yle did last three holes live.)

Lgcm8's camera angles were a lot better and and CCDG's commentary was more well-informed. But there was one huge difference: the focus of Yle's broadcast was clearly on who was going to win it, while CCDG's commentary barely mentioned it. On the last hole, when Feldberg had to make a putt to tie the score, CCDG's guys almost didn't mention it at all. DGPlanet has had a bit of the same problem.

I mean no disrespect to CCDG, they provide the best Youtube commentary and I watch all their clips. But clearly Youtube broadcasters miss the whole drama of competition, which disc golf also has.

Here's Yle's broadcast (in Finnish): http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1950263

Interesting. While I remain skeptical that anything will make disc golf a spectator sport of any significance, I'll step into the hypotheticals and ask:

Would a different tournament format work better?

If the current tournaments were televised, would it just be the final round (4 hours on Sunday afternoon)? Or the entire event? That's a lot of advertising space, and not always a lot of drama.

Would match play, or perhaps team match play, bring a lot more drama?

Or perhaps a staged showcase event featuring only the top 4 or 8 pros?

 

[JTacoma03]

I disagree that misbehavior of individuals is holding back the sport -- at most they hinder development of specific projects. There are bigger hindrances to disc golf's growth than that, just not as visible on the ground.

Say all the smokers up and vanished... that now leaves our entirely competent manufacturing/supply infrastructure and entirely competent PDGA to blow up the sport, right? They NEED a boogeyman.

I agree with the first part, though "specific projects" might be extended to "certain communities", where issues with one course may cloud the parks department's attitude to all courses.

When I hear "______ is holding back disc golf", my first thought that at most levels, nothing is holding it back. In almost all categories, disc golf is growing, and growing well.

Except for money and national exposure for the top pros, of course. The idea that something's holding that back is dependent on the assumption that these would naturally grow, if not for "_____" holding it back. Or that there's some magic formula that, if only the Powers That Be would recognize and implement, would boost pro disc golf to major sport status.

Personally, I don't believe either is true. Either disc golf is destined to be a participation sport, not a spectator sport; or the grassroots and scholastic growth will eventually provide the bulk of the fans the pros seek.

I'd like to comment on both of these posts since they're related.

ZAM would it be fair to say you're extrapolating what I said a bit much? I didn't say that image-tarnishing behavior is the biggest thing holding us back, but you're naive if you believe that it isn't part of the equation.

In fact (I agree with DavidSauls) I'm not saying it's "holding us back" as in if it disappeared we'd take off in popularity. I'm saying a negative image could interfere with the potential for future growth.

I do think there's a happy medium for us to fall into in terms of position relative to the mainstream culture, obviously we'll never eclipse the major sports and that's OK. However I don't think we'll realize our potential at all until we as a sport get organized and start channeling our growth productively. This is what Jussi is getting at in his article. We need an identity and a culture to buy into.

Want a great example of what solid leadership and a culture/lifestyle focus can do for you? Look at the history and growth of CrossFit.

 

[krisnosti]

what is crossfit? oh.... point made. unintentionally I'm sure

 

[Nemmers]

Interesting. While I remain skeptical that anything will make disc golf a spectator sport of any significance...

I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall during the first network meeting where they discussed televising ball golf. They probably asked the same questions as you, David. Nevertheless, it made it big. Not overnight, of course, but eventually.

I'll step into the hypotheticals and ask:

Would a different tournament format work better?

If the current tournaments were televised, would it just be the final round (4 hours on Sunday afternoon)? Or the entire event? That's a lot of advertising space, and not always a lot of drama.

Would match play, or perhaps team match play, bring a lot more drama?

Or perhaps a staged showcase event featuring only the top 4 or 8 pros?

Relevant questions.

If DG becomes widely televised, I think people will need to see the top pros shooting lights-out for the first couple of years. It'll be on ESPN2 for a while, and then when people who've been watching get out there and play because they think "how hard can it be?" and realize it's not that easy, it will eventually make it to the major networks, IMHO. And I think this will increase interest in the game -- thereby validating the professionalism of the sport -- exponentially.

It's only a matter of time....

 

[Karl]

Good questions.

The answers are in financial realities. Most of the money in the pro payouts comes from the entries of lower-finishing pros. You don't want to price the mass of them out of paying for the experience, or make it less likely for them to cash by moving up the cash line, or move the event overseas where they won't go. Also, Worlds is not placed anywhere; communities bid to host them. And, because of the finances, few want to host Pro Worlds.

As for the major companies, it's been tried. But no major company---or minor one, for that matter---is going to put much money into a venture with so few spectators. After all, sponsorship is really advertising, and they're looking for as many eyeballs as possible. It's highly doubtful that anyone will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the belief that, with the right production and promotion, they'll generate so many spectators that they'll recoup their expenses in additional sales.

At least, at this time.

David (and others),

The key statement here (in my opinion), is:
European countries seem to treat disc golf with more respect on the non disc golfer side.

In my playing in Europe and Asia over the last decade or so (many courses casually and numerous tournaments - some with galleries), there is a pervasive attitude of "be and let be" that involve virtually everything in people's lives. Because of this, the typical mindset (of Europeans) is "more relaxed", more accepting of 'different behavior', and less judgmental (especially when it comes to 'non-threatening things' like "sports"). In the US, we predominantly have the "big 4", while in Europe you'll see people involved in a LOT more varied "fringe" (or what we US'ers call "fringe") sports. Because of this, they're already accepting of "different"...and don't immediately castigate such.

Karl

 

[DavidSauls]

I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall during the first network meeting where they discussed televising ball golf. They probably asked the same questions as you, David. Nevertheless, it made it big. Not overnight, of course, but eventually.

They probably discussed attendance figures and ticket revenue at major events, interest shown by the general public following golf stories in the sports section of newspapers, the amounts of money people were spending on golf equipment and memberships in exclusive golf clubs---in other words, the already-existing spectator base.

 

[JTacoma03]

what is crossfit? oh.... point made. unintentionally I'm sure

CrossFit is a branded lifestyle based around high-intensity short-interval training that Reebok has recently picked up to make apparel and gear for and ESPN has now televised the "CrossFit Games" which crowns "The fittest person on earth" for 3 years...oh and it's only about 7 years old.

The workout style is not proprietary and many iterations of this workout method have been in place for years. What did CrossFit do? BRAND their flavor of workouts, organize from the top down, and present an attractive package for a major corporation to officially affiliate with and license to. How did they perpetuate the concept and grow? They push the culture and the lifestyle, which monetizes the concept.

This will unsettle some, because it factually discredits their reasons for naysaying...however it won't matter because when disc golf changes for the better I predict they'll leave for more grassrooty-green-pastures anyway

 

[krisnosti]

new commercial for crossfit on dgcr

I must be missing something.... or not.

 

[madmax88]

It was a response to an earlier post. Some guy must of been living under a rock, never heard of CrossFit???

 

[JTacoma03]

I must be missing something.... or not.

Space under the bridge is filling up, better get back there quick.

 

[Slider]

Again, lots of smarm and nothing is said. No humility around here.

I am not sure what you are talking about. Explain what you mea. Point out the lack of humility. Are you saying bow down to you? I would bow in general to a more logical response to a discussion besids name calling. To call someone arrogant or lacking humility without explaining is rash.

 

[Slider]

So I'm wrong yet you're agreeing with me. Not quite sure I understand your tactics.



If you're talking about me (not sure because you're being vague) then you even further don't understand my post.

Lets get this right. So when I post 4 or more times maybe you don't understand that I love this sport and I find these types of disc golf discussions exciting. You may find it just as exciting but you don't post as much, that is you. This discussion is great to have and I am anti-weed in disc golf. I pay with a lot of pot heads, but that doesn't mean I am not going to enjoy playing the game I love playing.

To me it is the pot-heads that are the nay saysers...they don't want the pot stigma to go away with disc golf. Maybe the weed suppliers in Colorado (now legal there) should get together and have the Weed Open and open a vending station there and let the PDGA know that is what they are going to do at a PDGA event and it is a family event on top of that.

So I post a lot...sue me.

 

[RK311]

Will the Weed Open be an A tier? Just asking cause if it is I'll need to pass my officials exam and get a tie-dyed collared shirt.

 

[disc qualified]

Will the Weed Open be an A tier? Just asking cause if it is I'll need to pass my officials exam and get a tie-dyed collared shirt.

(th)c-tier

 

[Menacewarf]

Most if not all of the courses in Maine have been pay-to-play from the beginning in the 80s. Mainers, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not sure even an A-tier has been run there yet? So much for the idea that a pay model by itself will help boost the pro game, at least with several U.S. examples so far. But pay to play may be needed to develop and manage the type of properties and courses more suitable for top level play moving forward, presuming the owners are interested in promoting the top pro level.

A bit late responding to this. Maine is 98% private pay to play (one public free course that when I visited almost all 9 baskets were vandalized or destroyed) and yes it is a wasteland for PDGA events. Their are tons of non sanctioned events, even through the winter at least 2 events a month. In the summer their is a 15 event series that regularly gets close to or over 100 players but again, not pdga. I'm not speaking for the Maine scene, but I think the attitude is something like, "we got a scene that works for us and is fun, what do we need the pdga and it's fees for (particularly when we are already supporting all of the courses)." Again that's not necessarily my attituted but just my guess at the attitude that keeps the maine scene kind of on it's own. Hell NEFA can't even really make inroads up here never mind the pdga.

 

[JTacoma03]

Lets get this right. So when I post 4 or more times maybe you don't understand that I love this sport and I find these types of disc golf discussions exciting. You may find it just as exciting but you don't post as much, that is you. This discussion is great to have and I am anti-weed in disc golf. I pay with a lot of pot heads, but that doesn't mean I am not going to enjoy playing the game I love playing.

To me it is the pot-heads that are the nay saysers...they don't want the pot stigma to go away with disc golf. Maybe the weed suppliers in Colorado (now legal there) should get together and have the Weed Open and open a vending station there and let the PDGA know that is what they are going to do at a PDGA event and it is a family event on top of that.

So I post a lot...sue me.

I'm just gonna assume you quoted the wrong person.