Payout

[Lazerface]

I agree it's not a completely unreasonable position to not play since you don't throw Discraft. Silly to me, but not unreasonable. To a previous posters point it comes down to filling the tournament. If it has an affect on that, it matters. My position, based on the various large Pro-Ams in recent years, is they will have no issue filling even if they went to trophy only.

What's more important is making sure all the Am money goes to the Open field. :thmbup: (I was kidding the first time and this time) Kind of.

 

[sjberry2017]

I agree it's not a completely unreasonable position to not play since you don't throw Discraft. Silly to me, but not unreasonable. To a previous posters point it comes down to filling the tournament. If it has an affect on that, it matters. My position, based on the various large Pro-Ams in recent years, is they will have no issue filling even if they went to trophy only.

What's more important is making sure all the Am money goes to the Open field. :thmbup: (I was kidding the first time and this time) Kind of.

I agree it seems silly, although for me personally, I enjoy having an am merch payout because it's something that kind of marks that I'm improving, at least to me. One of my favorite discs is a blue D2 I got with part of my first (and thus far only) payout from a tournament. It also let me try a D2 "for free" [yes, part of my entry fee, but I played more to play in the tourney and get rated rounds and the payout was just bonus], which is pretty awesome. So for me, I'd be somewhat disappointed if I cashed at Ledgestone to only be able to pick from Discraft, but I'd just load up on molds of theirs which I'd like to try out. Now, if I'd already tried a bunch of Discraft molds or had a payout of a couple hundred bucks, I'd be slightly annoyed at the limited selection.

And I'll go ahead and add my personal anecdote about trophy-only events. One of my favorite tournaments I've played (and will be playing again since it lines up with my spring break) is the IDGC Amateur Championships, which is trophy only and a huge player's pack. I remember the last time I played it, the player's pack was a nice disc storage box (which I still use), L64 disc with tournament stamp (I got a Mercy, which I'd wanted to try out), old PDGA DVD (I got the Highbridge Worlds one), course directory, plus some other smaller swag items and food etc. I've also played the Pam B Childs Memorial down there, which is the same sort of thing except it's a fundraiser tournament, and they're both really enjoyable to play in. Personally, I'm good with a tournament T shirt or stamped disc or a pro shop voucher. The Upstate Club locally used to, and I think still do, do a merch voucher as your player pack. That way they make the $$$ from the wholesale price of the disc you pick out and you'll get something you'll throw, which is a win-win as well.

 

[Lazerface]

I agree it seems silly, although for me personally, I enjoy having an am merch payout because it's something that kind of marks that I'm improving, at least to me. One of my favorite discs is a blue D2 I got with part of my first (and thus far only) payout from a tournament. It also let me try a D2 "for free" [yes, part of my entry fee, but I played more to play in the tourney and get rated rounds and the payout was just bonus], which is pretty awesome. So for me, I'd be somewhat disappointed if I cashed at Ledgestone to only be able to pick from Discraft, but I'd just load up on molds of theirs which I'd like to try out. Now, if I'd already tried a bunch of Discraft molds or had a payout of a couple hundred bucks, I'd be slightly annoyed at the limited selection.

And I'll go ahead and add my personal anecdote about trophy-only events. One of my favorite tournaments I've played (and will be playing again since it lines up with my spring break) is the IDGC Amateur Championships, which is trophy only and a huge player's pack. I remember the last time I played it, the player's pack was a nice disc storage box (which I still use), L64 disc with tournament stamp (I got a Mercy, which I'd wanted to try out), old PDGA DVD (I got the Highbridge Worlds one), course directory, plus some other smaller swag items and food etc. I've also played the Pam B Childs Memorial down there, which is the same sort of thing except it's a fundraiser tournament, and they're both really enjoyable to play in. Personally, I'm good with a tournament T shirt or stamped disc or a pro shop voucher. The Upstate Club locally used to, and I think still do, do a merch voucher as your player pack. That way they make the $$$ from the wholesale price of the disc you pick out and you'll get something you'll throw, which is a win-win as well.

I miss playing AM1. I used to have stacks on stacks of Frisbees. I gave away lots to youngsters hanging around parks watching us play disc golf. As an open player who is not sponsored (and should not be given my 3 or so events per year) I find myself buying discs. I don't like it. I get pretty jealous watching the Ams get players packs upon check in.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm not disparaging people for choosing not to play---yet it seems odd for an event like Ledgestone. I understand it a little more for a C-tier on a run-of-the-mill course, where the attraction's not all that great and the winning or receiving unwanted merchandise isn't much of an attraction, either. But if ever the prizes weren't going to matter, I'd think it would be an event that's large or prestigious or on a great course.

Then again, at our events we pay out in vouchers, and have a selection from Innova, Discraft, Latitude, and Dynamic to choose from.

 

[sjberry2017]

I miss playing AM1. I used to have stacks on stacks of Frisbees. I gave away lots to youngsters hanging around parks watching us play disc golf. As an open player who is not sponsored (and should not be given my 3 or so events per year) I find myself buying discs. I don't like it. I get pretty jealous watching the Ams get players packs upon check in.

I can understand that. But if the player's pack has a bunch of discs you don't throw, you then either have to trade them in and get less than their worth or go through selling them to be able to still buy what you want. Maybe less $$$ overall, but a larger headache than if there's a selection for the payout. As for player's packs, I'll try the disc out, but just give me something with the tournament logo on it. Once I move out of my college apartment when I get a real job I'm going to make a wall of all the tournament stamped discs I have.

I'm not disparaging people for choosing not to play---yet it seems odd for an event like Ledgestone. I understand it a little more for a C-tier on a run-of-the-mill course, where the attraction's not all that great and the winning or receiving unwanted merchandise isn't much of an attraction, either. But if ever the prizes weren't going to matter, I'd think it would be an event that's large or prestigious or on a great course.

I agree; I'll be trying to play in the Am side of the Hall of Fame classic this year just to be able to say I played in the Am side of a NT tournament.

 

[XC_Eddy]

Okay, this may be a stupid question, but I need some clarity. Does the $1300 payout for winning AM1 at Ledgestone have to be used on merch there? Am I understanding that correctly? I have very little tournament experience.

 

[dbaledge]

Personally based on other competitive sports I have played I wish they would adjust the am/pro system and have divisions based on points and once you reached a certain point level you could then move up. Example; 0-300 div 3, 301-600 div 2, 601-900 div 1, 901-... Pro. You get points by playing events and where you place, that way there is a guarantee that you are always playing within your skill set, you can play up but not down but playing up hurts you because you'll receive too many points and be unable to play a lower div, and best of all there is a cash pay out in every division. You don't have to declare as a pro you earn your spot. It works very well and as a grown adult with a real job winning money sounds more interesting then winning discs that I then have to sell. Ill keep playing either way but just food for thought and a concept that is proven.

 

[bnbanbury]

Personally based on other competitive sports I have played I wish they would adjust the am/pro system and have divisions based on points and once you reached a certain point level you could then move up. Example; 0-300 div 3, 301-600 div 2, 601-900 div 1, 901-... Pro. You get points by playing events and where you place, that way there is a guarantee that you are always playing within your skill set, you can play up but not down but playing up hurts you because you'll receive too many points and be unable to play a lower div, and best of all there is a cash pay out in every division. You don't have to declare as a pro you earn your spot. It works very well and as a grown adult with a real job winning money sounds more interesting then winning discs that I then have to sell. Ill keep playing either way but just food for thought and a concept that is proven.

I don't really want a cash payout for every division, nor would i care for a system that forces people to become pros. Am money pays for a lot of things: courses, baskets, teepads, ect. I like being an am and giving my money back to the club and TD. Becoming a professional should always be a choice imo.

 

[Lazerface]

Personally based on other competitive sports I have played I wish they would adjust the am/pro system and have divisions based on points and once you reached a certain point level you could then move up. Example; 0-300 div 3, 301-600 div 2, 601-900 div 1, 901-... Pro. You get points by playing events and where you place, that way there is a guarantee that you are always playing within your skill set, you can play up but not down but playing up hurts you because you'll receive too many points and be unable to play a lower div, and best of all there is a cash pay out in every division. You don't have to declare as a pro you earn your spot. It works very well and as a grown adult with a real job winning money sounds more interesting then winning discs that I then have to sell. Ill keep playing either way but just food for thought and a concept that is proven.

We have this already. It's called Player ratings. They are not perfect because disc golf is far from standardized and course SSA ratings (basis for playing ratings) are not always accurate. Each division has a ratings threshold so as you describe, you cannot play down. The only non threshold is Am to Pro, but there is enough tribal pressure in disc golf culture to force the baggers up to Open - too much probably as baggers are mislabeled a lot in disc golf.

It only hurts you to "play up" as you describe, if you actually do well. If you play up, but don't place well are you saying you would still receive points and wont be at risk of not being able to play back down?

Outside of the ranges, I'm missing how this is different than player ratings.

 

[scarpfish]

Personally based on other competitive sports I have played I wish they would adjust the am/pro system and have divisions based on points and once you reached a certain point level you could then move up. Example; 0-300 div 3, 301-600 div 2, 601-900 div 1, 901-... Pro. You get points by playing events and where you place, that way there is a guarantee that you are always playing within your skill set, you can play up but not down but playing up hurts you because you'll receive too many points and be unable to play a lower div, and best of all there is a cash pay out in every division. You don't have to declare as a pro you earn your spot. It works very well and as a grown adult with a real job winning money sounds more interesting then winning discs that I then have to sell. Ill keep playing either way but just food for thought and a concept that is proven.

Compared to the player ratings system already in place, this would be convoluted and silly. One player finishing modestly well at one super tournament, can get as many points as someone winning their field of 8-20 people at a series of local events. Beating a whole lot of people in either case doesn't mean a whole lot when they aren't as good as you.

 

[dbaledge]

We have this already. It's called Player ratings. They are not perfect because disc golf is far from standardized and course SSA ratings (basis for playing ratings) are not always accurate. Each division has a ratings threshold so as you describe, you cannot play down. The only non threshold is Am to Pro, but there is enough tribal pressure in disc golf culture to force the baggers up to Open - too much probably as baggers are mislabeled a lot in disc golf.

It only hurts you to "play up" as you describe, if you actually do well. If you play up, but don't place well are you saying you would still receive points and wont be at risk of not being able to play back down?

Outside of the ranges, I'm missing how this is different than player ratings.

The only real difference is that the ratings wouldn't be based on how you do against the course rather how you do against other people and the quality and quantity of tournaments played. Also it would be a standard system which as you mentioned is none existent. Just a different spin on it.

 

[dbaledge]

I don't really want a cash payout for every division, nor would i care for a system that forces people to become pros. Am money pays for a lot of things: courses, baskets, teepads, ect. I like being an am and giving my money back to the club and TD. Becoming a professional should always be a choice imo.

Well you can play whatever div you want, you can have 0 points and play pro, obvious pros wouldn't have to start at 0 playing Am.

 

[bnbanbury]

Well you can play whatever div you want, you can have 0 points and play pro, obvious pros wouldn't have to start at 0 playing Am.

But as you earn more points, eventually you would be given a pro designation correct?

 

[dbaledge]

Compared to the player ratings system already in place, this would be convoluted and silly. One player finishing modestly well at one super tournament, can get as many points as someone winning their field of 8-20 people at a series of local events. Beating a whole lot of people in either case doesn't mean a whole lot when they aren't as good as you.

That's why quality would matter, a major even would be worth more than a mini with your local club. For example winning a pro tournament would be worth say 500 points but wining your weekly mini may only be worth 15. Just an idea, it exist in the world of tournament paintball with great success and is universal world wide.

 

[lyleoross]

$1300 worth of Zones. Tasty.

Just discovered the zone. Very interesting disc. Reminds me of the harp but I love it's feel.

 

[jeverett]

Just discovered the zone. Very interesting disc. Reminds me of the harp but I love it's feel.

The Zone, imo, may be the best disc ever made. I too would be somewhat tempted to spend the $1300 on just Zones. Only if they had Z Zones, though.

 

[dbaledge]

But as you earn more points, eventually you would be given a pro designation correct?

Yes but the idea behind It is you wouldn't get there by staying around your local minis and beating up on rec players, but if you constantly play bigger tournaments then you would be "ready" when you did have enough points. But you could stay around your local club and hang out forever.

 

[lyleoross]

As an aside, about once a year, I package up all the discs I don't use and mail them to my alma mater's disc golf club - go beavers! Sometimes they even send me back swag.

 

[bnbanbury]

Yes but the idea behind It is you wouldn't get there by staying around your local minis and beating up on rec players, but if you constantly play bigger tournaments then you would be "ready" when you did have enough points. But you could stay around your local club and hang out forever.

Well I know that there are some pros that wish there were a mechanism for making people play pro, as alluded to by laser mentioning the tribal culture of pressure to get people to move up, but I don't think people should ever be required to be play professionally. Personally I find the culture of trying to shame people into playing pro ridiculous. Also, as mentioned, cash payouts for all divisions is something I wouldn't get behind either. AM money is important to the sport.

 

[JC17393]

Personally based on other competitive sports I have played I wish they would adjust the am/pro system and have divisions based on points and once you reached a certain point level you could then move up. Example; 0-300 div 3, 301-600 div 2, 601-900 div 1, 901-... Pro. You get points by playing events and where you place, that way there is a guarantee that you are always playing within your skill set, you can play up but not down but playing up hurts you because you'll receive too many points and be unable to play a lower div, and best of all there is a cash pay out in every division. You don't have to declare as a pro you earn your spot. It works very well and as a grown adult with a real job winning money sounds more interesting then winning discs that I then have to sell. Ill keep playing either way but just food for thought and a concept that is proven.

The problem with this is that there are large numbers of players for whom the reason they play tournaments is not to ascend the ladder to the highest competitive division simply because they're never going to be skilled enough to do so. For many players, no matter how much they practice, they're never going to be better than, say, an Intermediate level player. Why should such players ever be forced to play Advanced or Open (or whatever you want to call the different divisions)?

Ratings as they currently exist do a perfectly good job in sorting players into appropriate skill divisions. If a player is going to peak at a 875 rating no matter how long they play, then there's no reason they should ever be obligated to play any division other than Rec.