Payout

[dbaledge]

Well I know that there are some pros that wish there were a mechanism for making people play pro, as alluded to by laser mentioning the tribal culture of pressure to get people to move up, but I don't think people should ever be required to be play professionally. Personally I find the culture of trying to shame people into playing pro ridiculous. Also, as mentioned, cash payouts for all divisions is something I wouldn't get behind either. AM money is important to the sport.

I agree with you there just keeps it honest is all. 1300 in discs or 1300 in cash potato potato.

 

[dbaledge]

The problem with this is that there are large numbers of players for whom the reason they play tournaments is not to ascend the ladder to the highest competitive division simply because they're never going to be skilled enough to do so. For many players, no matter how much they practice, they're never going to be better than, say, an Intermediate level player. Why should such players ever be forced to play Advanced or Open (or whatever you want to call the different divisions)?

Ratings as they currently exist do a perfectly good job in sorting players into appropriate skill divisions. If a player is going to peak at a 875 rating no matter how long they play, then there's no reason they should ever be obligated to play any division other than Rec.

absolutely true.

 

[jeverett]

Okay, this may be a stupid question, but I need some clarity. Does the $1300 payout for winning AM1 at Ledgestone have to be used on merch there? Am I understanding that correctly? I have very little tournament experience.

I read through the event payout description.. it sounded like the scrip could also be used after the event itself at the Discraft Factory Store. So you aren't limited to merchandise on site, no, but you are still limited to Discraft merchandise.

 

[bnbanbury]

I agree with you there just keeps it honest is all. 1300 in discs or 1300 in cash potato potato.

But it's not potato potato. The $1300 merch. payout is based on retail value and is higher than the the actual cost for the TD to get stuff direct from the manufacturer. The delta between these 2 numbers is the money that the AMs are giving back to disc golf. AMs generate a ton of money because they don't get paid in cash.

Pros on the other hand cost money and also typically manage to &%$^ on all the local efforts to put the tournament on for them while they're in town

 

[scarpfish]

That's why quality would matter, a major even would be worth more than a mini with your local club. For example winning a pro tournament would be worth say 500 points but wining your weekly mini may only be worth 15. Just an idea, it exist in the world of tournament paintball with great success and is universal world wide.

The PDGA points system already does something akin to this.

http://www.pdga.com/points

http://www.pdga.com/files/playerdivisiongrid_v10302016.pdf

But getting a bunch of points is not the best indicator that you're ready to move up.

 

[lyleoross]

Well I know that there are some pros that wish there were a mechanism for making people play pro, as alluded to by laser mentioning the tribal culture of pressure to get people to move up, but I don't think people should ever be required to be play professionally. Personally I find the culture of trying to shame people into playing pro ridiculous. Also, as mentioned, cash payouts for all divisions is something I wouldn't get behind either. AM money is important to the sport.

I also wouldn't ignore the pressure from "lower ams" on higher rated ams not to "bag."

 

[lyleoross]

But it's not potato potato. The $1300 merch. payout is based on retail value and is higher than the the actual cost for the TD to get stuff direct from the manufacturer. The delta between these 2 numbers is the money that the AMs are giving back to disc golf. AMs generate a ton of money because they don't get paid in cash.

Pros on the other hand cost money and also typically manage to &%$^ on all the local efforts to put the tournament on for them while they're in town

While essentially true, you can't ignore the recent efforts on the part of Pros to help the sport. Paul's efforts in particular. But all of them, Ricky, Will and Paige, and others, do multiple interviews, step into commentaries etc. All of that is essentially a headache, and pro Bono work meant to entertain and include ams and potential fans. Yes, I know the value will vary from person to person, but you can't deny that there is a subset of us that values that. There's at least one.

I'm not trying to draw an equivalency, I'm just saying, the pros don't just take, they do give a good bit.

These guys are imminently patient, for the most part, with signing discs, visiting, making themselves available etc. Heck, Eagle even looked me in the eye at one tournament. For the poster who's gonna come back and harsh on me for harshing on Eagle, it's a joke.

 

[bnbanbury]

While essentially true, you can't ignore the recent efforts on the part of Pros to help the sport. Paul's efforts in particular. But all of them, Ricky, Will and Paige, and others, do multiple interviews, step into commentaries etc. All of that is essentially a headache, and pro Bono work meant to entertain and include ams and potential fans. Yes, I know the value will vary from person to person, but you can't deny that there is a subset of us that values that. There's at least one.

I'm not trying to draw an equivalency, I'm just saying, the pros don't just take, they do give a good bit.

These guys are imminently patient, for the most part, with signing discs, visiting, making themselves available etc. Heck, Eagle even looked me in the eye at one tournament. For the poster who's gonna come back and harsh on me for harshing on Eagle, it's a joke.

I agree, I inserted the smiley because I am only partly serious. I think that having a touring pros who are professional and who give time back to the sport is great for players and for the game's image. I have also had really negative interactions with touring guys that have left me wondering why clubs bother trying to attract these people in the first place.

I think that Pro's get plenty of credit when it comes to growing the sport. I wish that more people acknowledged some of the things that AM participation gives to the local clubs and TDs.

 

[sjberry2017]

The only real difference is that the ratings wouldn't be based on how you do against the course rather how you do against other people and the quality and quantity of tournaments played. Also it would be a standard system which as you mentioned is none existent. Just a different spin on it.

But then wouldn't it be less about your personal skill and more about you compared to the other local disc golfers?

IMHO, all that really needs to happen for your divisions idea is for MPO etc to get ditched and the color divisions be what's offered instead. That'd be better for competition as well because the ratings would be much more condensed and you'd also ditch the stigma of a guy who has been playing for several years but whose rating is 870 or w/e playing Rec because that's where his rating would place him. And then you could either keep the 970+ as the MPO field, or divide those colors and have smaller pools playing for $.

 

[dbaledge]

But then wouldn't it be less about your personal skill and more about you compared to the other local disc golfers?

IMHO, all that really needs to happen for your divisions idea is for MPO etc to get ditched and the color divisions be what's offered instead. That'd be better for competition as well because the ratings would be much more condensed and you'd also ditch the stigma of a guy who has been playing for several years but whose rating is 870 or w/e playing Rec because that's where his rating would place him. And then you could either keep the 970+ as the MPO field, or divide those colors and have smaller pools playing for $.

Well it would be structured in such a way that just playing in your locals wont really move you up enough to matter all that much. the system in place in paintball is set up to drop the highest score at the end of the year so its not hard to stay down if you want to.

 

[NathanNoodleArm]

$1300 worth of Zones. Tasty.

This is the first thing I thought of. VIP would be set for Zones for a long time.

 

[ejvogie]

2 Chainstars, and then enough Heats and Zones to last me and my kids forever.

 

[Reniger]

As a crappy Am who doesn't worry about cash, I'm just happy to get some free stuff/credit at local stores. If I have free money to spend with a certain manufacture or certain store, I can find something I want - be that clothes, discs, targets, or accessories. I'm fine with that. If I get up to winning 1st in AM1 or Pro divisions, I could see more of an issue. However, as an admitted average guy, I'm fine with current local payouts.

I play for the fun, the friends, and the competition. Regardless of my placing.

 

[Pwingles]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

My opinion is that Ams should be playing trophy only and have better players packs. If people are signing up for Am divisions for the payouts, that's kind of lame imo.

This, a lot

Even if some portion of the entry doesnt go to the open money (a different debate)

 

[zontar]

This, a lot

Even if some portion of the entry doesnt go to the open money (a different debate)

I second this!!

 

[JohtoVillage]

Well I feel like I have to comment. Just a few things....

You can use your payout at the Discraft Factory Store after the tournament. They will have a larger selection available by the time the end of the summer rolls around. That is at least the plan.

We do plan to have more than just discs available. Baskets, apparel, etc will all be available.

I would like to point out that not one dollar from AM entry fees goes to the pro payout. The AMS have a massive player's pack that is worth more than their entry fee plus they have a massive payout. This year players also will have a free dinner, ice cream social, free food at a baseball game and all kinds of other events going on.

I understand that its frustrating for some people to only have access to Discraft, but they put up a TON of money for this event. Lets remember that if you go play a DD event, you are going to be paid out in funds to buy DD plastic. We could certainly choose to have a smaller AM payout and just keep that money, but we have chosen to pay it out to the players. That money isn't going to the pros; its staying with the AMS. Discraft puts up a lot of money for this event, so they deserve exclusivity in the payout. I have definitely gotten thicker skin over the years, but whenever I hear people complain about getting "too much" money in their AM payout I have to laugh. I understand that's not what everyone is necessarily complaining about, but some people are. There was a large discussion the other day on a thread that drove Smashboxx to even talk about this in the first place and it really does feel like a first world problem

 

[lyleoross]

I wonder what the break point would be on trophy only? That is, what charge per entry would be necessary to cover pro payout? Yeah I know, bad pros. Set that aside for the math exercise. If I have to move X discs, with Y profit to cover pro payout, and my own profit (on disc sales), how much would I have to charge per player, trophy only, to get the same result?

The notion of a TD who runs an event, makes a little bit of money based on entry fees, and can do a payout with out having to move plastic has always intrigued me. On top of that. If you did sales at the event, you'd still move some merch, just not as much.

BTW, this is the fun run model. Typically, the entry goes to some cause, and there might be a cut for staff (pictures, timing etc.) but there's no payout model equivalent and the generate lots o money. Of course they can get 500 at a small event. Still, worth thinking about.

 

[lyleoross]

Well I feel like I have to comment. Just a few things....

You can use your payout at the Discraft Factory Store after the tournament. They will have a larger selection available by the time the end of the summer rolls around. That is at least the plan.

We do plan to have more than just discs available. Baskets, apparel, etc will all be available.

I would like to point out that not one dollar from AM entry fees goes to the pro payout. The AMS have a massive player's pack that is worth more than their entry fee plus they have a massive payout. This year players also will have a free dinner, ice cream social, free food at a baseball game and all kinds of other events going on.

I understand that its frustrating for some people to only have access to Discraft, but they put up a TON of money for this event. Lets remember that if you go play a DD event, you are going to be paid out in funds to buy DD plastic. We could certainly choose to have a smaller AM payout and just keep that money, but we have chosen to pay it out to the players. That money isn't going to the pros; its staying with the AMS. Discraft puts up a lot of money for this event, so they deserve exclusivity in the payout. I have definitely gotten thicker skin over the years, but whenever I hear people complain about getting "too much" money in their AM payout I have to laugh. I understand that's not what everyone is necessarily complaining about, but some people are. There was a large discussion the other day on a thread that drove Smashboxx to even talk about this in the first place and it really does feel like a first world problem

Quickly, Ledgstone is an amazing event. The notion that anyone would not go because of merch seems silly to me. Whatever you pay, atmosphere covers the cost. Thanks for commenting.

 

[DanJon]

If I won $1300 in AM, and could only pick Discraft, I would probably just switch my entire bag over to Discraft.

And get a basket.

 

[AzteC]

Playing a lot of local tournaments in San Diego last year, I probably have 5 yellow innova bags with player bag swag that I will never use. 5 sticker sheets, 5 coozies, and a disc or 2. I care nothing for those type of player packs. I'd much rather have a gift card so I could choose what I wanted.