PDGA NT: 2019 Dynamic Discs Glass Blown Open 24-Apr to 27-Apr-2019

[mizunodave]

I swear when I heard about calls in golf tournaments being phoned in by viewers, I thought.....damn, I hope disc golf never gets to this place. Having discussions of missed calls, caught on camera are utter nonsense. Outside of the discussion of how to better ensure these calls are made in the right time and place.

...that's exactly what's going on here. Did you skip the last few pages of the thread?

 

[Steve West]

It's a similar problem but with much lower frequency. Of course, we don't have data but I suspect that there's much more contact with the marker and line with the front part of the foot than going beyond it with the heel just barely past the line and not actually touching the marker which would be okay under the proposal.

No, it would be the same frequency because everyone would be trying to take advantage of that extra foot closer to the target. Everyone would be planting in front of the back of the marker.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

Seems like videographers should try to avoid getting players' footwork in the frame when possible, even covering up feet with graphics in post produced content. Video and photo evidence isn't allowed anyway. Players call and resolve whatever infractions are observed within the group based on what they saw or didn't see in real time, not what the cameras saw. It doesn't matter if there were 6 uncalled foot faults caught on camera or none. That's how the game is played. It's like focusing on a typo or grammatical error in a story instead of enjoying the overall content. These foot fault / step / jump putt discussions unnecessarily generate negative publicity and angrier social media posts. For example, the PGA has avoided showing golfers smoking on camera for a long time now, partly for publicity reasons. Foot faults have become at least one of our "smoking" guns.

Given that disc golf media companies and the PDGA/DGPT/pros already have quite cushy relations, this seems a horrible idea if we care about coverage that is more "objective" and not less. The story of what happens should be told because it happened, though I will admit that such replays in other sports can lead to the broadcast convo getting lost in the missed calls and the creation of alternative realities based in the "what if" the call had been made.

But how the replay is integrated into the coverage is a different matter than if the details of the event should make the broadcast. Smashboxx made the right call here and demonstrated their narrative and journalistic investments in doing so. That they can't catch every detail of every card shouldn't factor into the choice to share the details they do capture.

And that a disc golf forum will lose its mind over the detail doesn't change the tourney result and shouldn't change production choices by broadcasters.

 

[araytx]

My live feed got stuck, so I looked at how much of an impact the OB penalties had in the first three rounds for MPO.

9% of the total score was OB penalties. That means the total OB strokes were like 5.3 holes without OB. Out of 54 holes.

However, 30% of the variation in score came from OB penalties. The slope of scores as a function of rating was -.461 with OB, and -.324 without. So, the OB penalties had as much impact as 22.8 holes without OB.

OB also caused 27% of the scoring spread of total scores. Without OB, the scoring spread was 26.9. With OB, it was 36.9.

Note, however, the correlation of ratings to OB penalties was just -50.6%. This is much worse the the correlation of ratings with "real" throws of -79.5%. When combined, OB did almost nothing to help; the correlation of ratings to total scores with OB was only -0.2% better at -79.7%.

UH ...
https://vimeo.com/65921206#t=33s

 

[Jolt]

I think the rules give you a good amount o space behind the mark to place your foot. . .BUT most players, Pros and amateurs place the plantfoot to close to the mini and as the throw and turn their front foot over the mini.. . i see this several times a round

 

[Flick Maniac]

Yes, but has the disc already left the hand at that split-second or not? Impossible to tell.

 

[Jolt]

Yes, live it´s almost impossible to see. . so the rule is almost never called. . .the rule is more "try as best as you can and if you miss thats ok" and then we hope that players don´t "use" the fact that it´s never called and miss the mark on purpose

 

[Flick Maniac]

Yes. Exactly the case with step & jump putts too. People doing them know its impossible to tell live, so they dont worry about it being very close.

 

[Jolt]

But still a very Interesting GBO, lots o drama and no one really played THAT well.

Paul played under his rating. . did not win a single stat on Udisc. . and did not have a single hot round. . and still he won

 

[robdeforge]

The rules experts on here should know by now that any rule that requires a timing or observation call by the competitors will not be called consistently unless the delineation of Good/Bad is visually obvious in real time AND violation is seen to be egregious enough to warrant a 1-throw penalty.

How many of you set your cruise control at some point over the speed limit you feel is "safe enough" to not be pulled over? Other drivers usually have no problem with you going 5mph over even though it's a violation. In fact, many want you to go even faster over the limit say in Chicago to not slow up traffic flow. You don't make a citizen's arrest and turn yourself in for going over the speed limit. Cops typically don't ticket or even warn for 5mph over except maybe in one traffic light towns and school zones.

We all know technically speeding is a violation but generally agree as a society there's wiggle room. Going even 10mph over a 60mph limit is much like stepping on or beside your mini during a throw. You and the thrower probably see it's a foot fault but it's not enough to deserve a "ticket." Players intuitively understand this. The challenge for rule makers is to figure out how to write a rule that works under this wiggle room idea and meshes with those who want a black & white call.

was this in response to Catrina's foot fault on 17? Because that was going 100 in a 65. Super obvious and blatant and easy to call

I personally am more and more annoyed and discouraged by seeing the pros cheat (and yes I do think they're cheating at this point). The rules aren't hard to know and they aren't that hard to follow or enforce.

 

[JC17393]

was this in response to Catrina's foot fault on 17? Because that was going 100 in a 65. Super obvious and blatant and easy to call

I personally am more and more annoyed and discouraged by seeing the pros cheat (and yes I do think they're cheating at this point). The rules aren't hard to know and they aren't that hard to follow or enforce.

You're correct that they aren't hard to know and to follow, but some violations (foot faults in particular) have never been called all that frequently. It's not just pros, it's everyone. It's a culture that has existed since before I found the game and one that has persisted despite the best efforts of those that want to see it change (myself included). I don't think the vast majority of offenders are doing it maliciously or selfishly to get ahead. I think for the most part they're trying to go with the flow. The problem is the flow.

As annoying as it is to see on video, I honestly think it's the best thing for the game to have it happen because it puts it up front for all to see. More visible teaching moments might lead to more learning.

 

[dusty5150]

There's a Jones Gold? Thought it was just East and West, neither of which is a true Gold level course (East is probably a Blue+).

"Jones Gold" is a safari layout that uses both East & West courses, the entire park. Pretty sure it's never been used for GBO. More of a local thing.

 

[davetherocketguy]

The rules experts on here should know by now that any rule that requires a timing or observation call by the competitors will not be called consistently unless the delineation of Good/Bad is visually obvious in real time AND violation is seen to be egregious enough to warrant a 1-throw penalty.

How many of you set your cruise control at some point over the speed limit you feel is "safe enough" to not be pulled over? Other drivers usually have no problem with you going 5mph over even though it's a violation. In fact, many want you to go even faster over the limit say in Chicago to not slow up traffic flow. You don't make a citizen's arrest and turn yourself in for going over the speed limit. Cops typically don't ticket or even warn for 5mph over except maybe in one traffic light towns and school zones.

We all know technically speeding is a violation but generally agree as a society there's wiggle room. Going even 10mph over a 60mph limit is much like stepping on or beside your mini during a throw. You and the thrower probably see it's a foot fault but it's not enough to deserve a "ticket." Players intuitively understand this. The challenge for rule makers is to figure out how to write a rule that works under this wiggle room idea and meshes with those who want a black & white call.

Side note:

PLEASE do not use this mentality when driving through work zones. Those are real people (like me) on the other side of those plastic barrels with nothing but their nylon safety vests protecting themselves.

Thanks for listening

(Steps off soap box)

 

[SD86]

Yes. Exactly the case with step & jump putts too. People doing them know its impossible to tell live, so they dont worry about it being very close.

This. Which is why I think step-putts and related "foot in the air ahead of the disc" issues should be handled by completely outlawing them. Then there will be no more quandaries on whether or not to call Feldberg's egregious violations. opcorn:

 

[Steve West]

This. Which is why I think step-putts and related "foot in the air ahead of the disc" issues should be handled by completely outlawing them. Then there will be no more quandaries on whether or not to call Feldberg's egregious violations. opcorn:

Should outside the circle, diving from the knees, falling on the hands putts be outlawed too?

 

[Steve West]

You're correct that they aren't hard to know and to follow, but some violations (foot faults in particular) have never been called all that frequently. It's not just pros, it's everyone. It's a culture that has existed since before I found the game and one that has persisted despite the best efforts of those that want to see it change (myself included). I don't think the vast majority of offenders are doing it maliciously or selfishly to get ahead. I think for the most part they're trying to go with the flow. The problem is the flow.

As annoying as it is to see on video, I honestly think it's the best thing for the game to have it happen because it puts it up front for all to see. More visible teaching moments might lead to more learning.

It's not about the number of violations that get called, it's about the number of throws that are made correctly. That percentage now is very high - and highest at the highest levels - because the sport is self-officiated.

Even a discussion about whether there was a foot fault will cause that player to try to avoid the discussion next time. It doesn't always need to get to an actual penalty. (But if there was a clear violation, it definitely would be better if the penalty were imposed.)

If we mistakenly set a goal of getting more violations called, we can definitely do that. It wouldn't be fun. Let's stay focused on the goal of getting everyone playing the same game.

 

[Craig639]

The challenge for rule makers is to figure out how to write a rule that works under this wiggle room idea and meshes with those who want a black & white call.

I figured it out. Instead of the 20cm wide and 30cm deep rectangle, make it 20cm wide and 60cm deep. The extra 30 cm is the wiggle room we need for long holes that require a run-up on the approach throw(s).

 

[lyleoross]

I'm afraid we have much more proof the rule is the problem and has been for quite a while. We have explained, coached, cajoled and penalized over many years but behavior hasn't changed and maybe has gotten worse. It's unlikely to change due to the specifics of how the rule should be called and the incentives to do so do not match what players have come to intuitively believe is "fair." Wiggle room, baby.

I personally think this hits very wide of the mark. Go to your discussion on speeding. We've coached, cajoled, fined, talked about traffic fatalities due to speeding for way longer than we've played disc golf. Yet to no avail. The speeding rule is pretty simple and pretty clear. Folks speed cause they see an advantage.

Foot faults are related, but more complex. Folks don't fault because there is an advantage, they don't pay attention because not doing so provides the advantage of a simpler process.

 

[lyleoross]

I figured it out. Instead of the 20cm wide and 30cm deep rectangle, make it 20cm wide and 60cm deep. The extra 30 cm is the wiggle room we need for long holes that require a run-up on the approach throw(s).

You'd have the same problem. Disc behind tree, how far over can I run up?

 

[bneely]

Now that I've finished watching the Jomez coverage of FPO Round 4, the thing that most stood out to me was the professionalism of Paige's commentary, even as she discusses a close tournament she lost - and one that was fraught with conflict with the eventual winner.

This stands in some contrast to Catrina's commentary on the Nick Hyde Memorial final 9 video, where Paige roared back to take the win. Compare Paige's honest and objective praise for Catrina's performance to Catrina's muted and somewhat dismissive comments on Paige's performance down the stretch at the NHM.

Some of this is down to commentary style - Paige is more effusive and comfortable/capable behind the mic, but I can't help but ascribe some of the difference to an ability to rise above the emotional and provide objective analysis. Big props to Paige on that point.