Pro's top 10 list

[DiscGolfCraig]

I wanted to see how this site's top 10 rated courses compared to the pros favorite courses, especially after I've seen some great courses get lower ratings because people consider difficulty a negative (and conversely, easiness/birdie-ness a positive). I got the info from the Discraft player bios. The list includes 56 players from the following categories: Elite Team, Tour Team, Core Team & Masters Team. A total of 127 courses were listed. Most players listed their top 5; some less, a few listed more. Sites that had multiple courses - i.e. Woodshed & Whipping Post - were listed together. I'm going off the courses they listed so some may have been temporary courses or no longer in existence.

With that said, here is the top 10 and (number of votes)
1. Winthrop Gold, Rock Hill, SC (22)
2. Kensington, Milford, MI (16)
t-3. Water Works, Kansas City, MO (8)
t-3. Hudson Mills, Ann Arbor, MI (8)
t-3. Pickard, Des Moines, IA (8)
t-6. Pyramid/Maple Hills, Leicester, MA (7)
t-6. Renaissance, Charlotte, NC (7)
t-8. DeLaveaga, Santa Cruz, CA (6)
t-8. Blue Ribbon Pines, East Bethel MN (6)
t-8. Mt. Airy, Cincinnati, OH (6)

Here is the complete list.

For comparisons sake, here are the rest of the top 10 rated and favorited courses on the site's main page and how many votes they received. Items that are in pro's top 10 are in bold.

Rated
Flip City - 2 votes
Idlewild - 5
Highbridge Hills - 2
Whistler's Bend - 0
Beaver Ranch/Conifer Park - 2
Milo McIver - 3
Woodshed (and Whipping Post) - 3
Maple Hill (and Pyramid - 7
Blue Ribbon Pines - 6
Tyler State Park - 0

Favorited
Idlewild - 5 votes
DeLaveaga - 6
Flip City - 2
Water Works - 8
La Mirada - 4
Circle C - 1
Pier Park - 0
Lincoln Ridge - 1
Beaver Ranch/Conifer - 2
Moraine State Park - 3


So here's my question: Are we evaluating courses wrong? Why are the top two courses (according to this decent-sized sampling of pro DGers) - Winthrop and Kensington not in the DGcoursereview top 10? NOTE: Kensington only has 9 reviews, but it still ranks #11 for courses with 9+ reviews. Does that say something bad about us that out of the 14 reviews for Winthrop Gold, 6 of them rate the course a 4.0 or less? Why do the pros love this course, but people on here don't? Why are only 2 of the pros top 10 courses in our top 10? Would you trust a pro's opinion of an elite course more or less than all of us on the site?

I've attached the spreadsheet, which list the courses and player/state. Players voting for a course in their home state are highlighted in yellow to show any potential HBB. As said, this isn't a be-all, end-all list, just a honest look at some of the big discrepancies.

Let the debate begin!!

 

[zenbot]

We are not professionals.

</debate>

 

[zenbot]

OK OK. I'll reopen the debate tag.

<debate>


There could be a few things at work here.

• The pros are playing these courses at their most pristine.

• They may also be set up in different configurations for the larger tournaments.

• They may have obligations to some of the people that run the tourneys.

• They probably play more courses than the shmoes on this site. (I'm one of them, too! Don't get pissy now!)

• I think my opinion of a course would vary greatly if I left it with a couple thousand of dollars.

• HBB

• The pro pics may be too challenging for Johnny Noodlearm

 

[zenbot]

Another nice data pull from Craig.

 

[DiscGolfCraig]

Another nice data pull from Craig.

Let's just say I've had some free time at work lately, which allowed me to put that together.

 

[oddjob]

isn't a lot of D's sponsored players from the MI area? might want to add innova players as well for more diversity. and regarding winthrop, i doubt there are many people on here that have a chance to play the gold layout

 

[bikinjack]

As far as Winthrop Gold (the pro's #1) goes, it's probably more about the atmosphere, and all of the surroundings. For the rest of us, it's somewhat of a temporary course (ropes are up for what 2-3 weeks) that we'll have very few chances to experience, and never in the same way that the pro's experience it. Playing it now, or anytime not around the USDGC, is a navigational nightmare for the uninitiated, and not much fun for those of us who don't have huge arms.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Many here have likely not played Winthrop Gold during the USDGC when it's set up. Several of the courses like Blueberry Hill are blue not gold level courses. Blue Ribbon was designed by a Discraft sponsored pro and Hudson Mills is in Discraft's backyard. More top pros have played Kensington, Water Works, Pickard and Mt. Airy than Flip, Tyler (new version) or Idlewild. More top pros have played Maple Hill/Pyramids and Delaveaga than many on this site doing reviews. Paw Paw courses are love/dislike with the top pros with more dislike than love.

 

[prerube]

Pro players look for different things then rec players.

Navigation is never an issue for pros because they play during tournements with guides and temp signage.

Ammenaties are never an issue because they are fed and porto potties are brought in for the event

Cleanliness and basket quality is never an issue because the parks are cleaned up before the event and all baskets are fixed.

Extra landscaping is often done to improve the course.

No one rolls out the red carpet for us, as stated go to Winthrop months after any tourney, it is not going to be the same.

 

[tallpaul]

In regards to Winthorp; I've played there and am probably going to play it again at the end of March/early April. The primary reason I want to play it, is that I believe that this site rates that course TOO HIGH. Now, this is the lakefront version, not the gold lay out, and certainly not the gold layout with the o.b. lines put in, as for the USDGC.

I've also made the journey to play Water Works in K.C. a few times; and considered that a wonderful course a few years ago. The primary reason I enjoyed it greatly, in days gone by, is that, to me, it was one of the earliest courses to use roll-a-way greens extremely. However, I believe, when compared with many modern course designs, Waterworks has already become somewhat plain.

I think many of these listed courses, by the pros, are listed because major events are played there. I.e. for Waterworks, it was probably considered the best of the the K.C. Worlds courses. I haven't played Blue Valley yet, the is the one I had assumed would win that award; perhaps it was too brand new at the time. Winthorp is there for the same reasons. I also think their is some validity to the Michigan HBB in regards to Kensington. I've played there also, and like those courses very much; but, personally, think Monster and Cass Benton are better.

I have not had a chance to play Flip or Idlewild yet. Hoping to play one or both this year. I think both of these have some HBB on this site, and I would not be surprised if I rate both of them slightly lower than most do here. Another buddy of mine, who tends to rate courses here an average of .5 lower than most on this site (as do I), has already pointed out that the footage at Idlewild would not seem to indicate that it deserves to be at the top. I am reserving opinion until I get to play it.

I think Milo doesn't get the love here that it probably should, because west coast is less represented on this site, than other regions. West coast courses are also so spread out, that fewer get the chance to play them.

What about Senecca? I know Climo put that as one of his favorites for many years....It's one of mine, and I haven't played it's newest layout.

 

[bikinjack]

In regards to Winthorp; I've played there and am probably going to play it again at the end of March/early April. The primary reason I want to play it, is that I believe that this site rates that course TOO HIGH. Now, this is the lakefront version, not the gold lay out, and certainly not the gold layout with the o.b. lines put in, as for the USDGC.

I couldn't agree more about Winthrop being overrated.

 

[Mando]

Agree with CK, you have to play a course before you can decide if it's a favorite, so this list will be skewed towards the major tour stops like Winthrop. Personally, I value the data supplied by nearly 10,000 DGCR members who play for fun, much more than 56 guys who have a completely different agenda. I would think that it would be hard for pros to separate the quality/significance of the tournament from the course as far as favorites. Neverthess, it is interesting. Thanks for posting it.

 

[The Valkyrie Kid]

Winthrop is truly a beautiful setting for a course but.....navigation is a major issue. And 800 ft. open + holes might be a wonderful challenge for pros but for many of us recreational players they're just booooooring.

One could design a wonderful 18 hole course at Winthrop that would probably rate 4.5 or higher but it would be one that the pros would probably find little challenge. I don't think the powers that are at Winthrop much care about the disc golf experience of us rec players. If they did, they would make it easier to navigate.

 

[Swisher Streets]

Yeahhhh Pickard! its actually in Indianola, IA right outside of des moines. One of my favorite local courses.

 

[JTacoma03]

this list will be skewed towards the major tour stops like Winthrop.

That's what I'm thinking. I think courses that are regular tour stops will get more recognition.

It's not like these guys on the website blurbs sit and dissect "now this is my #1" etc. They just go off the dome, naming the first few courses that come to mind when the question is posed.

 

[magictenor1]

Diferent people will have different sets of criteria for what makes a great course. Pros will most likely be looking for different things than a casual rec player would. you have to ask yourself: is it more important to me what a pro thinks or what another DGCR member thinks? (maybe someone who you know plays at your level)

 

[Disc Dog]

OK OK. I'll reopen the debate tag.

<debate>


There could be a few things at work here.

• The pros are playing these courses at their most pristine.

• They may also be set up in different configurations for the larger tournaments.

• They may have obligations to some of the people that run the tourneys.

• They probably play more courses than the shmoes on this site. (I'm one of them, too! Don't get pissy now!)

• I think my opinion of a course would vary greatly if I left it with a couple thousand of dollars.

• HBB

• The pro pics may be too challenging for Johnny Noodlearm

The two I highlighted above seem the most likely. If the organizers bust their collective butts and prep the place right the all important 'first impression' is good.

Second if you have great success at a course it will forever place a warm fuzzy memory about that course in your mind. (The only exception to this is Renny in NC. That ball buster leaves an impression you will never get over and that forces you to be honest in your eval no matter your score.)

 

[_.-Dut-._]

Does that say something bad about us that out of the 14 reviews for Winthrop Gold, 6 of them rate the course a 4.0 or less? Why do the pros love this course, but people on here don't?

I think one of the reasons Winthrop might get higher marks from Pros is they relate it to the USDGC. Also many of the Pros travel to the course from a distance, so the course and tournament and road trip all get bundled together into one great time/vacation.

Alot of the people that rate it here can play whenever they want and havent been apart of the tourney. So when they play it they rate it for what it is and not for the extras.



Not saying which is right and which is wrong, just that could explain some of the descrepencys.

 

[gcrussell4]

I think that part of it is the difference in GOALS between casual players and pros. The way I see it...

Casual players:

Have fun
Hang with the homies
Not have to worry about basic things like course navigation, etc.
Leaving the course with a happy feeling

Pros:

Being able to really challenge yourself (16 down every round isn't always that fun)
Good variety in those challenges
Course forces you to get better
Course can create separation between players

Both:

Play in a pretty place
Good upkeep
Accurate Information (tee signs, etc.)
Net being eaten alive by mosquitoes/alligators/angry neighbors

 

[Kwick]

Also keep in mind that top Pros will be playing courses that have top level tournaments, so that may create a bias towards those courses (you can also say the top courses get top tournaments)

For example, recent worlds in Kansas City, so Water works is listed highly

A top level course that does not have a PDGA A tier tourney would not likely have been played by as many pros as all the courses in Kansas City. Furthermore, newer pros may not have played older Worlds Courses.

And has kind of mentioned before, when they play a tourney at these places, they are often playing different layouts than normal folk and also take into consideration how they were treated, overall experience of tourney that may not be applicable for a casual player