Pro's top 10 list

[DiscJunkie]

I think one of the reasons Winthrop might get higher marks from Pros is they relate it to the USDGC. Also many of the Pros travel to the course from a distance, so the course and tournament and road trip all get bundled together into one great time/vacation.

Alot of the people that rate it here can play whenever they want and havent been apart of the tourney. So when they play it they rate it for what it is and not for the extras.

Not saying which is right and which is wrong, just that could explain some of the descrepencys.

To expand a little on this post, Winthrop Gold is a temporary course. Quite a few of the baskets are removed after the USDGC. A few weeks or a month before the USDGC is held, they place the baskets in their locations and institue whatever changes have been decided. They put up the ropes in their new configuration and spiffy up the course. Then shortly before the USDGC is held, they put up tents and shelters and PortaPotties, etc. Most pros play this course at its pristine best.
Even on Spectator Day (Sunday after the USDGC), the feel isn't the same. If you show up in June to play Winthrop Gold, it's downright ugly.
Second, it is not a "fun" course to play. It's meant to challenge you and play with your head. It will, however, give you a great idea about how good your game is. Maybe I just love the pain, I rated this course with Five Stars from day one and I've never broken 100 on it.
This year will be different (he keeps telling himself), I will break a hundred!!

 

[tallpaul]

I've spent a while trying to find the results page for the Cracked Plastic tourney in Cold Brook Park, Kalamazoo, Michigan. Still working on that, it was held this past weekend. I was looking to verify info from a friend I play with fairly often. He reported that he placed 2nd in pro master and fourth in pro open (with 48 players in division). My point for giving this opening info (besides the shout out for a Wisconsin discer who took home some Michigan cash!!! woot!!!); is that, when I spoke with him prior to heading out for the tourney, I had asked him if he had played, or was planning to play any other courses in the area....

He has been to this event for more than 3 years now. They went a day early to play the course before the tourney. And, have done so in the past. However, HE AND TRAVELING COMPANIONS HAVE NEVER PLAYED ANY OTHER COURSES BESIDES THIS ONE.

Pro tourney players, are concentrating on the tourney at hand. They can not waste valuable monetary resources, nor valuable time, playing other courses in the area, as many of us here are want to do. They are focused on the event at hand; and trying to play well, and pay for their trip. This has already been mentioned in various ways on this thread; but this points directly to some of the reasons why pros have different ideas about courses than many of us here.

(As one more side note; Chris claimed the Kalamazoo TD mentioned at some point in the awards ceremony that Wisconsin players made up nearly half of his total field....woot!!! Not only do we travel, but we're taking home cash!!! Take that, elitist Michigan disc snobs!!!/only kidding)

 

[DangeRuss]

I'm pretty sure (not positive) that they are talking about Kensington Toboggan which is a pretty sweet course but is only open for tournaments and like 1 week during the summer so most of us on here probably will never play it.

I agree that Hudson Mills Metropark should be on the list. The original and monster course provide all the different shots that a pro would want along with two different tees and baskets on the monster. Plus, you guys were right, having it in Discraft's backyard is always nice.

 

[ThomasOrion]

WOW, good work with the stats Craig. Interesting. PS: what a great place to put together a cool stat...work! Uhm, I honestly think that it may be where people on this site are from and the courses they play most. I'm from WI and MN area so those are the courses I've played. I rate one's that I play a lot and REALLY enjoy, pretty high. Other's (even if its a good course) if I play it one time in a certain scenary or setting I may not enjoy it as much as a Pro playing with it 'ready to go' and getting 3 rounds in. I played Acorn in the St. Paul, MN area. I hear it's good, and I like it, but, we played when it was a first snow...it was kinda cold and windy, and we only got to play 14 holes....so I have it a 3/5. Others playing in the summer with a few good buddies that all have a good round on a beautiful day could give it a 5! You know, it depends. PLUS, the guy who wrote "Pro's play more courses than most of the SCHMOE's on here do" Haha, he's totally right. I've tallied it up, and I've only played like 10 courses. Really not that much. I just got a new disc in the mail today so all this talk is making want to get out and play....so im out. even tho theres still snow and its 20 degrees.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Pro tourney players, are concentrating on the tourney at hand. They can not waste valuable monetary resources, nor valuable time, playing other courses in the area, as many of us here are want to do. They are focused on the event at hand; and trying to play well, and pay for their trip.

This is true even at Worlds. The Master division wasn't scheduled to play top rated Blueberry Hill at PW2007. Several Masters I asked about the course years later said they never took time to play it. Likewise, the GMs weren't scheduled on the Gold course and few played it even from the White tees.

As an aside, when you consider these differences in orientation regarding course evaluations, why do many people think it's smart to get a local pro who is not an experienced course designer to do their course design?

 

[biscoe]

primarily because the interface with the landowners (usually parks dept) is these local players and neither the player nor the landowner knows any better.

 

[biscoe]

I'm pretty sure (not positive) that they are talking about Kensington Toboggan which is a pretty sweet course but is only open for tournaments and like 1 week during the summer so most of us on here probably will never play it.

I agree that Hudson Mills Metropark should be on the list. The original and monster course provide all the different shots that a pro would want along with two different tees and baskets on the monster. Plus, you guys were right, having it in Discraft's backyard is always nice.

when we played the ann arbor courses for worlds i thought toboggan was a lot of fun due to the huge elevation but pretty biased towards the power player.

other than hudson mills campground which was pretty much a throw-away i thought the monster was the worst course we played- the letter holes were down-right dumb. the original was way better.

i thought cass benton had the potential to be the best of the lot simply due to having more variety even if some of the wooded holes were a bit sketchy.

 

[Dave242]

Great work compiling and great topic Craig! :clap: :thmbup:

One thing I am wondering is how old the lists on discraft.com are: Would some newer courses (like IDGC, Hippodrome, Highbridge, etc) even been in existence when the players in question submitted their lists?

 

[harr0140]

I've spent a while trying to find the results page for the Cracked Plastic tourney in Cold Brook Park, Kalamazoo, Michigan. Still working on that, it was held this past weekend. I was looking to verify info from a friend I play with fairly often. He reported that he placed 2nd in pro master and fourth in pro open (with 48 players in division). My point for giving this opening info (besides the shout out for a Wisconsin discer who took home some Michigan cash!!! woot!!!); is that, when I spoke with him prior to heading out for the tourney, I had asked him if he had played, or was planning to play any other courses in the area....

He has been to this event for more than 3 years now. They went a day early to play the course before the tourney. And, have done so in the past. However, HE AND TRAVELING COMPANIONS HAVE NEVER PLAYED ANY OTHER COURSES BESIDES THIS ONE.

Pro tourney players, are concentrating on the tourney at hand. They can not waste valuable monetary resources, nor valuable time, playing other courses in the area, as many of us here are want to do. They are focused on the event at hand; and trying to play well, and pay for their trip. This has already been mentioned in various ways on this thread; but this points directly to some of the reasons why pros have different ideas about courses than many of us here.

(As one more side note; Chris claimed the Kalamazoo TD mentioned at some point in the awards ceremony that Wisconsin players made up nearly half of his total field....woot!!! Not only do we travel, but we're taking home cash!!! Take that, elitist Michigan disc snobs!!!/only kidding)

Results are not up on the PDGA page yet I have looked recently too. However I did hear that Wisconsin brought home the entire Ace Pot . . . split among three people Will Mueller (Hole5guy), his roommate Chad Inman, and Appleton's Scott Reek.

I cannot imagine what the effect of all that money being removed from the Michigan economy will do!!!

 

[Cgkdisc]

Several experienced designers evaluated the Michigan Worlds courses hole by hole in 2000 - McDaniel, Dropcho, Howard, Houck, Hoeniger, Monroe and me. The point system was 1 thru 4 on multiple characteristics on each hole and some overall course factors. A score over 3.25 was considered Good, and from 2.5 to 3.25 was Acceptable. The course scores were: Toboggan 3.4, Tunnel 3.2, Cass & Campground 3.0, Original 2.9 and Monster 2.8 (alphabet holes were a big prob but apparently many of those olive trees are now cleared out).

 

[YawningDrone]

interesting thread..

 

[sidewinder22]

Many courses that the touring pros play change layouts and only have the long layouts for these tourneys, so not many other people get to play these layouts. Its kinda hard to accurately record the perspective across the spectrum of players because the course can change drastically from one weekend to another.

I was amazed at the difference that Seneca has from the Soiree A tier to the MAAC B tier. I loved the Soiree in the long to longs, but at the MAAC I was a little disappointed with the first round deuce fest and it didn't get much harder the next two rounds. Now that Patapsco has the permanent green monster layout, its awesome being able to play it anytime!

Iron Hill and Carousel Park are great new pro/gold level courses and can be played in its tourney layout anytime. Iron Hill's rating on here was butchered by rec players that don't like a challenge and also reviews that weighed in before it the course was complete, its still not complete like the AM tees. Not many touring pros have played these courses either yet, but it will be interesting to hear what they have to say this summer.

Im surprised nobody has brought up Hawk Hallow. I know a few top pros that have this course at the very top of their list and rightfully so because it has more variety than any other course I've played. I know a number of the local pros love Paw Paw, the Grange, and Tyler also.

 

[Dave242]

Here is how DGCR rated the Pro's Top 10 that HBC compiled (Overall/Trusted):

here is the top 10 and (number of votes)
1. Winthrop Gold, Rock Hill, SC (22) - 4.31/4.42
2. Kensington, Milford, MI (16) - 4.61/4.00
t-3. Water Works, Kansas City, MO (8) - 4.56/4.44
t-3. Hudson Mills, Ann Arbor, MI (8) -
Monster - 4.39/3.50
Original - 4.48/4.25
t-3. Pickard, Des Moines, IA (8) - 4.56/4.50
t-6. Pyramid/Maple Hills, Leicester, MA (7)
Pyramids - 4.10/4.00
Maple Hill - 4.66/4.83
t-6. Renaissance, Charlotte, NC (7) - 4.29/4.42
t-8. DeLaveaga, Santa Cruz, CA (6) - 4.49/4.47
t-8. Blue Ribbon Pines, East Bethel MN (6) - 4.66/4.92
t-8. Mt. Airy, Cincinnati, OH (6) - 3.95/3.89

 

[DiscGolfCraig]

Here is how DGCR rated the Pro's Top 10 that HBC compiled (Overall/Trusted):

here is the top 10 and (number of votes)
1. Winthrop Gold, Rock Hill, SC (22) - 4.31/4.42
2. Kensington, Milford, MI (16) - 4.61/4.00
t-3. Water Works, Kansas City, MO (8) - 4.56/4.44
t-3. Hudson Mills, Ann Arbor, MI (8) -
Monster - 4.39/3.50
Original - 4.48/4.25
t-3. Pickard, Des Moines, IA (8) - 4.56/4.50
t-6. Pyramid/Maple Hills, Leicester, MA (7)
Pyramids - 4.10/4.00
Maple Hill - 4.66/4.83
t-6. Renaissance, Charlotte, NC (7) - 4.29/4.42
t-8. DeLaveaga, Santa Cruz, CA (6) - 4.49/4.47
t-8. Blue Ribbon Pines, East Bethel MN (6) - 4.66/4.92
t-8. Mt. Airy, Cincinnati, OH (6) - 3.95/3.89

It's interesting that 5 & 1/2 (Pyramids being the half) of the top 10 courses are rated less than 4.5 here. If you go by the minimum 10-reviews criteria, Mt. Airy ranks #131 on this site, Pyramids #85, Renny #53 & Winthrop Gold #46.

 

[DavidSauls]

There are many players, both pro and non-pro, who really like tough, challenging courses.

However, for a course to be really challenging to top pros, it might be almost insanely tough to us mortals.

For example, Stoney Hill is quite a challenge to players like me (925 rated), and even beats down 975-rated players. But, I've watched a few 1000+-rated players cruise through the most hazardous holes with considerably less trouble. Clearly, it would take much longer/tighter/trickier holes to give top players the kind of challenge that would result in a top rating (if challenge is high on their criteria).

 

[NDABRUSH]

It's interesting that 5 & 1/2 (Pyramids being the half) of the top 10 courses are rated less than 4.5 here. If you go by the minimum 10-reviews criteria, Mt. Airy ranks #131 on this site, Pyramids #85, Renny #53 & Winthrop Gold #46.

I was surprised to see Mt Airy on there also. If you think about it though, we still have it listed in the top 4 percent of existing courses. (based in 3500 total courses, 131 is 3.74 % of 3500) I could be wrong about the total number of courses. For some reason 3500 popped into my head.:\

 

[grodney]

Interestingly(?), I can tell you from much experience, Pickard in Des Moines is NOT a super-challenging course for top-level players. But it is a challenging course for Adv-Am or lower level pros.

True course par is 64, but the SSA is only around 57 or 58. That means a 1000 rated player is shooting 7-under on average. Anybody over 1020 would be expected to shoot 10-under-ish. And that's AVERAGE, not hot rounds.

So, a top pro is going to find this course feeling like golf (lots of par 4's and 5's), but also with lots of birdies available. I think that's part of the attraction. A 900-950 player is going to struggle much more to make par (on every hole and overall), really feeling the difficulty/length.

 

[billnchristy]

Hold a disasterous tournament at the best course and see how the pros feel. I agree that it is totally environment and event experience that guides this.

Winning probably doesn't hurt either.

 

[grodney]

Oh, and yeah, Winthrop Gold, taken alone, is not a great course. In my opinion, the rope actually makes it worse. Not because it's more challenging, but because it is more contrived.

I don't think it appears on the pros' lists because it's a great course.

 

[cydisc]

A lot of people make the assumption that Winthrop Gold is a great course, but it's the tournament that makes it a draw. When I played there, I thought there were maybe 4 good holes and the rest were just long for length's sake. It's nothing without the rope and rope is lame.