Refusing to Be Filmed

[ru4por]

Can you imagine Greg Norman nicely asking CBS not to film him as he tanked the final round of the 1996 Masters? The Falcons politely requesting that FOX not film them during the second half of Super Bowl 51? Bill Buckner kindly inquiring that ABC edit him out of the 10th inning of Game 6 of the 1986 World Series?

The guy is a professional disc golfer. Having cameras filming your round (and publishing the video later) has become an increasingly common part of being a pro disc golfer, especially a high profile "touring" pro disc golfer. So there's an obligation on his part to accept that he's being filmed and go along with it...whether he's playing well or not. Especially if his actual grievance (so called "distractions") had nothing whatsoever to do with the presence of the cameras.

I really don't think anyone has the torches and pitchforks out, but there's no reason the broader topic shouldn't be a topic of discussion. This was bound to come up eventually, it just happened to be JohnE who made it relevant.

Comparing the multi million industry of golf and disc golf is honestly kind of laughable. We are a bunch of guys throwing plastic in the woods. This was kind of my point. I don't really care why he did it, he asked nicely to not be filmed.....I just fail to see the outrage.

The ancillary discussion of PDGA guidelines on media are valid though.

 

[Steve West]

Comparing the multi million industry of golf and disc golf is honestly kind of laughable. We are a bunch of guys throwing plastic in the woods. This was kind of my point. I don't really care why he did it, he asked nicely to not be filmed.....I just fail to see the outrage.

The ancillary discussion of PDGA guidelines on media are valid though.

Even if this was a multi-million dollar event, don't they make everyone other than the hired crew put away their cell phones at those events?

 

[lyleoross]

Why else move to Boise...

Equating the Vintage Open to the superbowl or the masters is kind of ridiculous. A preseason game, a warm up to the next major. Which is pretty much what the Vintage is. Last year it was a B-tier between WACO and Jonesboro, this year it was an A-tier between Jonesboro and GBO. Now i am not saying it is not a good tourney and it is growing The field doubled between this year and last and the Pro field tripled. But it isn't the Masters...

I hear Boise is quite nice.

 

[lyleoross]

I don't care whether Johnny gets filmed throwing or not, on the other hand, "you have thirty seconds to pee and I'm counting," is fun as heck to watch.

Thirty one thousand, twenty-nine one thousand...

 

[MarkDSM]

Mean enough for a spoof video response?

I have terrible ideas like 'instructor removed from a teaching clinic just showimg panning over the crowd and people asking unanswered questions'

 

[JC17393]

I was at the Bill Buckner game. It was painful. Two things. It ruined his life, you should see him talk about it. Also, it wasn't his fault, it was a bad management decision. Bill had weaknesses, including the fact that he couldn't bend over due to many injuries. Pretty much everyone in the audience did a "what?" when he was brought in. No one thought it was the right move. Of course, no one will ever know why the manager made that decision.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion of JEM.

You don't have to tell me...life long Sox fan. Totally know the Buckner story and how badly he was mistreated by a portion of the fan base. It wasn't so much a "why was he brought in?" (he started the game), it was more a "why is he still in the game?" because he'd been replaced for defensive purposes in every other game in which the Sox had a lead that post-season. Manager said he wanted his vets on the field for the final out and that was why he left him in. That guy cost the team the game and the series, not Buckner. But that's another topic, so yes, back to JohnE.

Comparing the multi million industry of golf and disc golf is honestly kind of laughable. We are a bunch of guys throwing plastic in the woods. This was kind of my point. I don't really care why he did it, he asked nicely to not be filmed.....I just fail to see the outrage.

The ancillary discussion of PDGA guidelines on media are valid though.

It's not about comparing the sports. I point out that McCray is a professional because that is his choice. He could be a regular joe with a regular job playing disc golf tournament as a hobby, and I don't think anyone would say boo about his not wanting to be filmed. But this is what he does for a living. If he wants to make a living in the game, it doesn't matter how courtesy or nice he is, he doesn't get to pick and choose what rounds people get to see and what ones they don't. Being filmed is part of the deal, whether we're a multi-billion dollar sport or a fledgling multi-thousand dollar one, because that's part of what is needed to grow.

 

[brutalbrutus]

The one thing I know is.... the more I read this thread, the more I want to see his play during that round...

 

[lyleoross]

You don't have to tell me...life long Sox fan. Totally know the Buckner story and how badly he was mistreated by a portion of the fan base. It wasn't so much a "why was he brought in?" (he started the game), it was more a "why is he still in the game?" because he'd been replaced for defensive purposes in every other game in which the Sox had a lead that post-season. Manager said he wanted his vets on the field for the final out and that was why he left him in. That guy cost the team the game and the series, not Buckner. But that's another topic, so yes, back to JohnE.




It's not about comparing the sports. I point out that McCray is a professional because that is his choice. He could be a regular joe with a regular job playing disc golf tournament as a hobby, and I don't think anyone would say boo about his not wanting to be filmed. But this is what he does for a living. If he wants to make a living in the game, it doesn't matter how courtesy or nice he is, he doesn't get to pick and choose what rounds people get to see and what ones they don't. Being filmed is part of the deal, whether we're a multi-billion dollar sport or a fledgling multi-thousand dollar one, because that's part of what is needed to grow.

It's funny how the mind drifts in thirty years. Thanks for the refresher! At the time I just remember everyone questioning the decision by the manager. Bill paid the price.

 

[Keller]

JohnE off camera is not necessarily a bad thing for the disc golf image.

 

[ru4por]

It's not about comparing the sports. I point out that McCray is a professional because that is his choice. He could be a regular joe with a regular job playing disc golf tournament as a hobby, and I don't think anyone would say boo about his not wanting to be filmed. But this is what he does for a living. If he wants to make a living in the game, it doesn't matter how courtesy or nice he is, he doesn't get to pick and choose what rounds people get to see and what ones they don't. Being filmed is part of the deal, whether we're a multi-billion dollar sport or a fledgling multi-thousand dollar one, because that's part of what is needed to grow.

We will have to disagree. I think it is indeed about comparing the sports. I don't think JEM has any obligation to growing the sport. Nor does he really have to. I do understand that he agrees to be filmed under the right circumstances within the PDGA constraints, but again...within this tiny niche sport, I don't see where courtesy should not be the guideline.

But, I do understand your point.

 

[JC17393]

We will have to disagree. I think it is indeed about comparing the sports. I don't think JEM has any obligation to growing the sport. Nor does he really have to. I do understand that he agrees to be filmed under the right circumstances within the PDGA constraints, but again...within this tiny niche sport, I don't see where courtesy should not be the guideline.

But, I do understand your point.

His obligation may not be to "grow the sport" but shouldn't his obligation be to maximize his potential income? As a full time touring pro, he's relying on tournament winnings and sponsor support to keep himself on the road (and fed and clothed and all that). Video exposure for tournaments could lead to increased tournament purses and sponsor interest, both of which would benefit him personally. Limiting exposure by begging off of published videos, and being conspicuous in his absence in those videos, seems to run counter to that end.

 

[lyleoross]

We will have to disagree. I think it is indeed about comparing the sports. I don't think JEM has any obligation to growing the sport. Nor does he really have to. I do understand that he agrees to be filmed under the right circumstances within the PDGA constraints, but again...within this tiny niche sport, I don't see where courtesy should not be the guideline.

But, I do understand your point.

I think I wrote this before, but I agree. If John doesn't want himself in the video, and the videographer agreed, whose business is it but theirs?

I think it is foolish of John but have no issue. In a sport where the top players are discussed in important venues like... oh man, what is that place? Oh yeah, DGCourseReview, often enough because they have a strong presence in videos and on youtube, taking yourself out of that spotlight hurts your brand. Oh wait, John just engendered a multipage thread about his preference. I wonder if it's a secret plot on his part?

Paul McBeth manages his online persona to his benefit. In part, because of that, he has a huge following. It seems to me that Ricky is figuring this out too and trying to manage his online persona. John's actions seem to give him a bad reputation here. Nikko does similar things. It would be in his best interests, and the best interests of Lat, for him to change that perception, IMO.

The guy sounds like a good person in real life, that is, non-disc golf life, he should let that come through win or lose.

 

[davetherocketguy]

His obligation may not be to "grow the sport" but shouldn't his obligation be to maximize his potential income?

His obligations are in no part any of our business.

As a full time touring pro, he's relying on tournament winnings and sponsor support to keep himself on the road (and fed and clothed and all that). Video exposure for tournaments could lead to increased tournament purses and sponsor interest, both of which would benefit him personally. Limiting exposure by begging off of published videos, and being conspicuous in his absence in those videos, seems to run counter to that end.

You know intimate details of JEM's personal finances? You and he must be really close.

 

[Golden Tuna]

:doh:

This thread is still going huh? ...seems kind of like a waste of time...

 

[brutalbrutus]

Johne should stay and play at Tuetlecreek

Turtlecreek is no more...

:doh:

This thread is still going huh? ...seems kind of like a waste of time...

Good thing you wasted your time by posting in it then, huh?


...and besides, isn't that what chat forums are for?

 

[Golden Tuna]

Good thing you wasted your time by posting in it then, huh?


...and besides, isn't that what chat forums are for?

ok, change of pace.
You can have 3 discs...

 

[JTacoma03]

Comparing the multi million industry of golf and disc golf is honestly kind of laughable. We are a bunch of guys throwing plastic in the woods. This was kind of my point. I don't really care why he did it, he asked nicely to not be filmed.....I just fail to see the outrage.

The ancillary discussion of PDGA guidelines on media are valid though.

I don't understand your willingness to be obtuse about the growth of the game. The professional tour is not "just a bunch of guys throwing plastic in the woods" - that may be you and I's local social groups or weekly tag matches, but that's not the reality of the pro tour. If it were, you would have no idea who I am other than a random screen name on a forum for a hobby we share. Media and Athletes have a symbiotic relationship, you can't just arbitrarily decide when that relationship is on and off.

JohnE specifically is a lightning rod because he came out of what was essentially retirement to do his "It's About Time" tour. That was financially motivated, as well as for the love of the game I'm sure. If it was "just a bunch of guys throwing plastic in the woods" what sense would it make for him to attempt a comeback, in MPO nonetheless? Climo, Brown, Schultz, Reading, etc. are all playing Masters (either predominantly or exclusively) - but JohnE chooses to play Open.

He's catching flak, plainly, because he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. You can't demand the rewards, respect, and status of a superstar in a sport and yet eschew your obligations. If Marshawn Lynch has to sit through pre- and post- game pressers, JohnE needs to learn to ignore the camera ops and play his game.

 

[brutalbrutus]

ok, change of pace.
You can have 3 discs...

Touche. You picked one of the few things on DGCR that really irks me...

But only because it is a topic that has been done hundreds of times...

 

[NDABRUSH]

I was at the Bill Buckner game. It was painful. Two things. It ruined his life, you should see him talk about it. Also, it wasn't his fault, it was a bad management decision. Bill had weaknesses, including the fact that he couldn't bend over due to many injuries. Pretty much everyone in the audience did a "what?" when he was brought in. No one thought it was the right move. Of course, no one will ever know why the manager made that decision.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion of JEM.

Hhahaha, ruined his life. He was paid to play a game, just like the opposing teams players. IMO you are correct about it being the managers poor decision that made that outcome possible. Bill just made a human error at the worst possible time. We really can let things go, but that can be hard to do some times, for most of us. Having said that, I do think that Neil O'donnell should be ashamed.:wall:

 

[philstine]

I've never been a fan of JohnE, and I can't think of a way for the optics of his request come across as anything but terrible for him. In my estimation, it makes him look petty, and can't help but reinforce people's already ambivalent, if not outright negative, perception of him.

That being said:

It's not about comparing the sports. I point out that McCray is a professional because that is his choice. He could be a regular joe with a regular job playing disc golf tournament as a hobby, and I don't think anyone would say boo about his not wanting to be filmed. But this is what he does for a living. If he wants to make a living in the game, it doesn't matter how courtesy or nice he is, he doesn't get to pick and choose what rounds people get to see and what ones they don't. Being filmed is part of the deal, whether we're a multi-billion dollar sport or a fledgling multi-thousand dollar one, because that's part of what is needed to grow.

Context is everything.

If a videographer is engaged to cover the event by the TD or the PDGA, I would agree that he didn't have the right to choose whether or not the round was shown, however, if the information reported by Terry and JVPhobic that Will was not engaged cover the event but decided to film, more or less at the last minute, and that he asked each of the players on the card if they were OK with him filming the round (the fact that he did so shows that, at least in his mind, he was NOT acting as an agent of the PDGA) is correct, then Will was filming as a private individual rather than an agent of the PDGA, and therefore not covered by the Media Policy. In that circumstance, I think JohnE had every right to request that he not be filmed or shown, and Will was free to decided whether or not to honor that request.