Refusing to Be Filmed

[JC17393]

Watch the Smashboxx link above. I don't think simply asking for permission from the TD automatically makes you a media agent or opts you into the lengthy media agreement the production companies have to deal with.

The rule has nothing to do media agreements though. Makes no mention of them so it's not as though a signed agreement is required for someone to be official media at an event. The players aren't aware of who's being paid and who isn't, or who's signed a contract and who hasn't, so why should that be a factor? If the media is TD-approved, it's official media.

Put it this way, if the TD said at the players' meeting that "Joe is going to be filming the lead card for us, thanks a lot Joe", then shouldn't the players take that to mean he's official and they should treat him as such? Much different than if Jim just shows up at the park, speaks to no one, and starts filming the round on his own. The players would be under no obligation to cooperate with him at all.

 

[sidewinder22]

The rule has nothing to do media agreements though. Makes no mention of them so it's not as though a signed agreement is required for someone to be official media at an event. The players aren't aware of who's being paid and who isn't, or who's signed a contract and who hasn't, so why should that be a factor? If the media is TD-approved, it's official media.

Put it this way, if the TD said at the players' meeting that "Joe is going to be filming the lead card for us, thanks a lot Joe", then shouldn't the players take that to mean he's official and they should treat him as such? Much different than if Jim just shows up at the park, speaks to no one, and starts filming the round on his own. The players would be under no obligation to cooperate with him at all.

If he was conveyed by the TD as a media agent at the player meeting, then I would agree. But I don't think that was the case here. It didn't sound like the videographer and the TD had any real agreement or affiliation in place as a media agent. There is a big difference in just giving the ok to film the event vs being an agent with responsibilities.

 

[BionicRib]

What this has brought up is that we need to work on clarifying our media policy. It's already been in the works as far as producers and sponsors go, but we'll be sure to add more about player conduct and expectations, too.

Whom would be responsible for enforcing said policy on a public park? And if a park district was informed that a tournament was being filmed and money exchanged wouldn't that open a can of worms that could put post and live productions in more of a financial tizzy than they are already in?...especially if the landowner wants a cut?

 

[philstine]

Who would be responsible for enforcing said policy on a public park?

FTFY. [Relative pronoun, subject of sentence]

PDGA policy, therefore PDGA or its appointed agent (typically the TD), is responsible for enforcement.

And if a park district was informed that a tournament was being filmed and money exchanged wouldn't that open a can of worms that could put post and live productions in more of a financial tizzy than they are already in?...especially if the landowner wants a cut?

Why should it? The media policy governs the rights and responsibilites of PDGA, the media companies, and the players, and is separate from the financial arrangement between the tournament organizer/organizing comittee and the landowner. If the landowner wants compensation he/she/it needs to build it into the facility use fee.

 

[DanJon]

Both of these comments here indicate why this is a gray area. First, it was a last-minute situation: The videographer told me he asked the guys on the card if they were OK to be filmed, they complied, and then he told the TD he was doing it. He wasn't contracted beforehand, or even paid. So while, yes, he did have permission, was he an agent? It depends on your lens for the situation. I think the in advance/contract portion needs to be taken into account here.

What this has brought up is that we need to work on clarifying our media policy. It's already been in the works as far as producers and sponsors go, but we'll be sure to add more about player conduct and expectations, too.

Where in the rules does it say that there needs to be any "in advance notice" or contract in place?

 

[JTacoma03]

Both of these comments here indicate why this is a gray area. First, it was a last-minute situation: The videographer told me he asked the guys on the card if they were OK to be filmed, they complied, and then he told the TD he was doing it. He wasn't contracted beforehand, or even paid. So while, yes, he did have permission, was he an agent? It depends on your lens for the situation. I think the in advance/contract portion needs to be taken into account here.

What this has brought up is that we need to work on clarifying our media policy. It's already been in the works as far as producers and sponsors go, but we'll be sure to add more about player conduct and expectations, too.

Steve is hitting the nail on the head. The media policy needs serious work. Especially in light of the past 6 months.

I'm not going to dive into the many interpretations of permissions because most of them either don't apply here or are too vague...but suffice to say there's a ton of grey area on what constitutes commercial filming and how that would interact with public property. It's far more nuanced when you factor in local ordinances (depending on the location).

On top of that, the PDGA's media policy is incredibly vague, nearly unenforceable, and not policed whatsoever.

So essentially it's the wild west. The better litigator wins, not necessarily the correct law interpretation.



On the other hand, JohnE is notorious for being grumpy on camera. My last run-in with him was at Masters Worlds last year. To his credit, he was polite and blamed it on himself, but at the end of the day if you're going to be a professional and take (our) money in prize purses there are certain things you have to learn to deal with...one of those things is being filmed. I can empathize because it's not the disc golf world he came of age in, but it's the world now in 2018...so you just gotta adjust.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm not going to dive into the many interpretations of permissions because most of them either don't apply here or are too vague...but suffice to say there's a ton of grey area on what constitutes commercial filming and how that would interact with public property. It's far more nuanced when you factor in local ordinances (depending on the location).

IMO this is a reason why private courses are going to be the future of the pdga. There's a lot of grey area regarding disc golf tournaments on public land, not just video wise, but some parks consider payouts illegal gambling.

 

[BionicRib]

If the landowner wants compensation he/she/it needs to build it into the facility use fee.

That was my point....

How many tds/media types are actually disclosing and/or asking for permission to film the tournament to make a few bucks?
Private courses sure, but I doubt the discussion hardly comes up when a td is going over the details with a park director when asking permission for a tournament.

And if there was a substantial amount of money potentially involved they would most definitely raise their "facility use" fee

 

[tampora]

Right from the Competition Manual: 3.06 A. All participants agree that the PDGA and its agents may publish photographs and images of their participation at PDGA-sanctioned events.

I'll bite the bullet and take the technical counter argument.

That excerpt says the PDGA maintains the right to publish films and photographs. Nowhere does it say the PDGA maintains the right TO film and photograph.

Thus, JEM has the right to refuse to be filmed and photographed, but not the right for films and photographs to be published.

It is the PDGA's problem to figure out how to create such media. I would suggest divining rods attached to paint brushes.

 

[sidewinder22]

Thus, JEM has the right to refuse to be filmed and photographed.

Nobody has that right on public land though.

 

[DinosaurThunder]

I wonder how JohnE's sponsor Lat 64 feels about him not being filmed?:\

They don't seem to be too concerned with how their pros act at events... Brown/JEM..

 

[Streets]

They don't seem to be too concerned with how their pros act at events... Brown/JEM..

Or Ricky "Two Feet Away from Mini" Wysocki.

 

[DiscFifty]

Much different than if Jim just shows up at the park, speaks to no one, and starts filming the round on his own. The players would be under no obligation to cooperate with him at all.

And Jim would be under no obligation to stop filming either. Again...IF it was at a public venue.

 

[JTacoma03]

IMO this is a reason why private courses are going to be the future of the pdga. There's a lot of grey area regarding disc golf tournaments on public land, not just video wise, but some parks consider payouts illegal gambling.

Totally agree, with the rare exceptions in places like Emporia and Rock Hill that have local government that are non-tentatively on-board with the vision.

Steve said the same on the podcast last week in terms of it being a priority for the DGPT.

I mean (no offense meant to the TD/organizers) but consider how, relatively, Memorial was top 3 in terms of wow factor not that long ago. Now compare it to the rest of the 2018 tour...

 

[TimSyl]

I've followed and commented on this thread. I don't think the basic question has been answered, WHY did JEM want to be edited out after the fact?

 

[takman]

For the 2007 PRO WORLDS FINAL NINE, Markus Kallstroms footage was edited out of the DVD. It had something to do with his sponsor & possibly money, but I don't recall the details. My point is, there are reasons to refuse filming.

 

[Major Tomahawk]

If I had a nice lead going into the final round and ended up losing by a few strokes I wouldn't want anyone to see that either, but like the emergence of the Watergate tapes, we may see JEM's final round some day.

 

[Zanguini]

If I had a nice lead going into the final round and ended up losing by a few strokes I wouldn't want anyone to see that either, but like the emergence of the Watergate tapes, we may see JEM's final round some day.

According to smashboxx he asked after hole 6. I believe he was tied at that point. Freeman didnt really turn it on until hole 7 when he started birdieing holes that pros should birdie given normal conditions. Johnny ended up with the same score on the round as his other card mates.

 

[F. Howl]

...

I mean (no offense meant to the TD/organizers) but consider how, relatively, Memorial was top 3 in terms of wow factor not that long ago. Now compare it to the rest of the 2018 tour...

What would you say are the big 3 stops this year?

 

[JC17393]

For the 2007 PRO WORLDS FINAL NINE, Markus Kallstroms footage was edited out of the DVD. It had something to do with his sponsor & possibly money, but I don't recall the details. My point is, there are reasons to refuse filming.

You sure about that? I don't think Innova would have wanted him edited out for a second place finish at the biggest tournament of the year. He was their only player in the MPO final. Too bad they didn't spell his name right.

The whole thing is on Youtube.