Rules enforcement from top PDGA pros

[hiflyer]

Idk, we all know the PDGA doesnt really care, because this last incident didnt even make them raise an eyebrow. It's just a thought. But when you go out in full public view and say "f2138 the rules, Im not gonna follow them. " then you need to be disciplined somehow.

Maybe just ban them from collecting any winnings for 12 months. They can pay the fees and participate, but they wont collect any winnings, regardless of podium position. Thats pretty enforceable, imo.

 

[teemkey]

Make all the players enforce that rule.

I think the question is how the PDGA would enforce the rule. If the professionals don't like it, would the PDGA require a marshal on every card to ensure compliance?

 

[araytx]

Idk, we all know the PDGA doesnt really care, because this last incident didnt even make them raise an eyebrow. It's just a thought. But when you go out in full public view and say "f2138 the rules, Im not gonna follow them. " then you need to be disciplined somehow.

Maybe just ban them from collecting any winnings for 12 months. They can pay the fees and participate, but they wont collect any winnings, regardless of podium position. Thats pretty enforceable, imo.

Since it was brought up at committee, clearly someone in the PDGA cares.

 

[hiflyer]

Since it was brought up at committee, clearly someone in the PDGA cares.

Oho. I did not know this (perhaps I skim too quickly).
Good. Hopefully it gets more than just a mention.

 

[Casey 1988]

They are all unenforceable by the PDGA.

I ignore rules involving:
Marking the lie, illegal disc, uniquely marking the disc, alcohol occasionally though I don't drink much or often.

Some Illigal discs/non PDGA approved are not acceptable to me, though made illegal through means on some like disc consistency of plastic I look the other way as some plastic like Champion can be run gambit from Gummy to stiff. Some companies have max weight discs oops too high once in a blue moon. So you know discs are like that, with discrepancies in the runs, So I look the other way. Same for some brand's Factory seconds they are either too stiff Legally or odd plastic not like the original disc so in that case if somebody made a disc in say Champion or other plastic more grip via heat or less stiff via heat I look the other way. If the disc is chunked bad, with obvious thing glued on the disc, or not PDGA approved I then get a bit miffed.

 

[_MTL_]

Idk, we all know the PDGA doesnt really care, because this last incident didnt even make them raise an eyebrow. It's just a thought. But when you go out in full public view and say "f2138 the rules, Im not gonna follow them. " then you need to be disciplined somehow.

Maybe just ban them from collecting any winnings for 12 months. They can pay the fees and participate, but they wont collect any winnings, regardless of podium position. Thats pretty enforceable, imo.

Saying "screw the rules I'm not going to follow them" should not result in discipline. Saying "screw the rules I'm not going to to follow them" and then clearly breaking rules should and would result in discipline as this is now intentional cheating and would be a Class B Disciplinary Action.

It's ironic that you say 12 months of winnings, because class B offenses carry a standard penalty of a twelve-month suspension followed by twelve months of probation.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Some Illigal discs/non PDGA approved are not acceptable to me, though made illegal through means on some like disc consistency of plastic I look the other way as some plastic like Champion can be run gambit from Gummy to stiff. Some companies have max weight discs oops too high once in a blue moon. So you know discs are like that, with discrepancies in the runs, So I look the other way. Same for some brand's Factory seconds they are either too stiff Legally or odd plastic not like the original disc so in that case if somebody made a disc in say Champion or other plastic more grip via heat or less stiff via heat I look the other way. If the disc is chunked bad, with obvious thing glued on the disc, or not PDGA approved I then get a bit miffed.

The next time I see someone with crap glued to the disc will be the very first time.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I think the question is how the PDGA would enforce the rule. If the professionals don't like it, would the PDGA require a marshal on every card to ensure compliance?

Requiring a Marshall on every card is going to kill events.

 

[Jay Dub]

Idk, we all know the PDGA doesnt really care, because this last incident didnt even make them raise an eyebrow. It's just a thought. But when you go out in full public view and say "f2138 the rules, Im not gonna follow them. " then you need to be disciplined somehow.

Maybe just ban them from collecting any winnings for 12 months. They can pay the fees and participate, but they wont collect any winnings, regardless of podium position. Thats pretty enforceable, imo.

If they get suspended they will not play in any tournaments if there is zero chance of getting money for placing.
If anyone thinks disc golfers will pay to play in a tournament while guaranteed to get nothing in return you have not been paying attention.

 

[Dingus]

If anyone thinks disc golfers will pay to play in a tournament while guaranteed to get nothing in return you have not been paying attention.

My $0 in tournament winnings begs to differ

 

[robdeforge]

Saying "screw the rules I'm not going to follow them" should not result in discipline.

it absolutely should result in discipline. saying this is literally already breaking the rules... if somebody said this to me I would call them on a courtesy violation. because it is, in multiple ways lol

 

[teemkey]

Requiring a Marshall on every card is going to kill events.

Agreed. So how could rules enforcement be enforced? It seems like the pros want to decide which (or more accurately how) rules are applied to their competition.

It's possible that if the PDGA becomes overly strict, the touring pros would form or join another organization.

 

[hiflyer]

If they get suspended they will not play in any tournaments if there is zero chance of getting money for placing.
If anyone thinks disc golfers will pay to play in a tournament while guaranteed to get nothing in return you have not been paying attention.

I don't think the pros would play. Thats the point. Its not a ban or a "suspension." Its taking away the kids allowance. If they think they can get on lead card and get some youtube coverage, go for it. But they are going home empty handed regardless because they wont follow the rules.

Unfortunately I dont think we can stop them from giving personal lessons or clinics, so I guess they can still get a portion of their allowance.

 

[_MTL_]

it absolutely should result in discipline. saying this is literally already breaking the rules... if somebody said this to me I would call them on a courtesy violation. because it is, in multiple ways lol

I think we are using the word "discipline" in different contexts.

I was using it as in the disciplinary committee, which is charged with only handling things that excessively break the rules or can't be handled by the rules of play.

I agree a courtesy warning would be the correct outcome.

 

[Steve West]

Agreed. So how could rules enforcement be enforced? It seems like the pros want to decide which (or more accurately how) rules are applied to their competition.

It's possible that if the PDGA becomes overly strict, the touring pros would form or join another organization.

Let's not lose sight of how well rules are currently being followed. The vast majority of players are playing according to the rules almost all the time. We talk a lot about the exceptions precisely because they are so rare.

Look how much discussion there is when a rules question comes up during play. Players make a lot of effort to get it right, including often throwing a set of provisional throws.

How often is OB simply forgiven? Players can enforce rules.

If we went to using referees, we could end up like the NBA where violations are routinely ignored.

 

[hiflyer]

Agreed. So how could rules enforcement be enforced? It seems like the pros want to decide which (or more accurately how) rules are applied to their competition.

It's possible that if the PDGA becomes overly strict, the touring pros would form or join another organization.

Rules enforcement is enforced by applying penalties. When there is no consequence to an action, there's no incentive. If the pros knew there was actually a chance of being punished for not following the rules, I would think they'd try to comply. As of now, it doesnt seem like there is any REAL consequence to any rule breaking.

If they dont want to follow someone elses rules, let them form their own org. We'll see how that works out. *cough salient cough*

 

[teemkey]

Let's not lose sight of how well rules are currently being followed. The vast majority of players are playing according to the rules almost all the time. We talk a lot about the exceptions precisely because they are so rare.

Look how much discussion there is when a rules question comes up during play. Players make a lot of effort to get it right, including often throwing a set of provisional throws.

How often is OB simply forgiven? Players can enforce rules.

If we went to using referees, we could end up like the NBA where violations are routinely ignored.

Agreed. The attitude seems to be that if a player breaks a rule that everyone else follows AND it gives them a scoring advantage, it will be called.

 

[teemkey]

Rules enforcement is enforced by applying penalties. When there is no consequence to an action, there's no incentive. If the pros knew there was actually a chance of being punished for not following the rules, I would think they'd try to comply. As of now, it doesnt seem like there is any REAL consequence to any rule breaking.

If they dont want to follow someone elses rules, let them form their own org. We'll see how that works out. *cough salient cough*

There's an organization in the south that has successfully run non-PDGA tournaments for years. Salient failed because Kilgus acted like a dick and Salient couldn't live up to its promises.

I think DGPT was set up more as a competitor to the National Tour than a cooperator.

 

[araytx]

Saying "screw the rules I'm not going to follow them" should not result in discipline. Saying "screw the rules I'm not going to to follow them" and then clearly breaking rules should and would result in discipline as this is now intentional cheating and would be a Class B Disciplinary Action.

It's ironic that you say 12 months of winnings, because class B offenses carry a standard penalty of a twelve-month suspension followed by twelve months of probation.

Requiring a Marshall on every card is going to kill events.

If they get suspended they will not play in any tournaments if there is zero chance of getting money for placing.
If anyone thinks disc golfers will pay to play in a tournament while guaranteed to get nothing in return you have not been paying attention.

it absolutely should result in discipline. saying this is literally already breaking the rules... if somebody said this to me I would call them on a courtesy violation. because it is, in multiple ways lol

Agreed. So how could rules enforcement be enforced? It seems like the pros want to decide which (or more accurately how) rules are applied to their competition.

It's possible that if the PDGA becomes overly strict, the touring pros would form or join another organization.

I don't think the pros would play. Thats the point. Its not a ban or a "suspension." Its taking away the kids allowance. If they think they can get on lead card and get some youtube coverage, go for it. But they are going home empty handed regardless because they wont follow the rules.

Unfortunately I dont think we can stop them from giving personal lessons or clinics, so I guess they can still get a portion of their allowance.

Rules enforcement is enforced by applying penalties. When there is no consequence to an action, there's no incentive. If the pros knew there was actually a chance of being punished for not following the rules, I would think they'd try to comply. As of now, it doesnt seem like there is any REAL consequence to any rule breaking.

If they dont want to follow someone elses rules, let them form their own org. We'll see how that works out. *cough salient cough*

There's an organization in the south that has successfully run non-PDGA tournaments for years. Salient failed because Kilgus acted like a dick and Salient couldn't live up to its promises.

I think DGPT was set up more as a competitor to the National Tour than a cooperator.

You guys (on both sides) are wrong about having officials that call rule violations and players' response to it. IF DONE CORRECTLY, it could happen and could happen with appropriate PDGA oversight and with pro players buying into it. I've been an official in baseball, softball, basketball, and football -- baseball & football from peewees to D1 college -- and with the right organization, training, and accountability it is done well. Despite the "disdain" we as fans often have for officials, the overwhelming majority of right calls & correct handling in tough situations far out-weigh the bad ones that get a lot of press. The piece that is missing, going back to what MTL said way early on, is the financial piece. Those things cannot be done without appropriate financing -- and until the sport has the money to put into a well-organized, compensated, accountable officials organization, it is better to leave things as they are and work to improve the current system. I firmly believe that.

 

[teemkey]

You guys (on both sides) are wrong about having officials that call rule violations and players' response to it. IF DONE CORRECTLY, it could happen and could happen with appropriate PDGA oversight and with pro players buying into it. I've been an official in baseball, softball, basketball, and football -- baseball & football from peewees to D1 college -- and with the right organization, training, and accountability it is done well. Despite the "disdain" we as fans often have for officials, the overwhelming majority of right calls & correct handling in tough situations far out-weigh the bad ones that get a lot of press. The piece that is missing, going back to what MTL said way early on, is the financial piece. Those things cannot be done without appropriate financing -- and until the sport has the money to put into a well-organized, compensated, accountable officials organization, it is better to leave things as they are and work to improve the current system. I firmly believe that.

It needs to be a two-way street. The RC might reconsider rules that are (appear to be) rejected by the players. I think the overriding rule ("Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred.") is a good one. If most of the uncalled rule violations fall into the "unclear in real time" category, perhaps the rule could be reworded to give the players a clearer distinction between legal and illegal play. Or, maybe, the RC should accept that commonly unenforced rules should not be violations.