Rules enforcement from top PDGA pros

[Armus Patheticus]

Would you object to people calling you on the rules you routinely break? Or do you break these rules outside of PDGA competition?

I would not object in the slightest. Part of ignoring rules is accepting the possible consequences.

 

[davetherocketguy]

It's obvious that this is not my implication. I plainly stated that I willingly, routinely, and conscientiously break several rules. I do not consider myself a cheater.

Rule breaking comes in a few categories: Ignoring pointless rules, ignorance, and cheating. The first group may go forth with my blessing.

Otherwise, I unhesitatingly call penalties on anyone violating most rules, ignorant or not. Getting penalized is a quick and effective way to get unignorant. Being kind and friendly to the people you're playing with makes it easy to call violations when they happen.

But, if cheating does happen, and there are no consequences, I'm not at all concerned. That's between the cheater and their self. I have the luxury of not needing to be taken seriously, and I certainly couldn't care less about the reputation of disc golf.

So what rule(s) do you consider "pointless?"

 

[Jugular]

So what rule(s) do you consider "pointless?"

Before Armus jumps in I'm going to guess at them, they may not all be rules precisely:
- Flipping a disc rather than marking it with a mini.
- Throwing whenever is time convenient rather than playing furthest out.
- Not limiting searching for discs to 3 minutes.
- Pushing branches out of the way that are directly in the way of a swing, or taking relief away from tree trunks etc. that pose an injury risk.
- Teeing off based on who has a disc in hand first.
- Tapping the basket with the disc when behind lie rather than dropping it in.
- Playing with discs that are not marked, may have been significantly altered or not PDGA approved.
- Ingesting/inhaling PDGA banned substances.
- Throwing discs back to a bag over 1m away (is it 1m? something like that).

 

[Rastnav]

- Throwing discs back to a bag over 1m away (is it 1m? something like that).

5m, which is 15+ feet. Should be plenty.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

So what rule(s) do you consider "pointless?"

I already listed them in this thread.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Before Armus jumps in I'm going to guess at them, they may not all be rules precisely:
- Flipping a disc rather than marking it with a mini.
- Throwing whenever is time convenient rather than playing furthest out.
- Not limiting searching for discs to 3 minutes.
- Pushing branches out of the way that are directly in the way of a swing, or taking relief away from tree trunks etc. that pose an injury risk.
- Teeing off based on who has a disc in hand first.
- Tapping the basket with the disc when behind lie rather than dropping it in.
- Playing with discs that are not marked, may have been significantly altered or not PDGA approved.
- Ingesting/inhaling PDGA banned substances.
- Throwing discs back to a bag over 1m away (is it 1m? something like that).

Well I sure appreciate your representation. You got some right and some wrong.

Teeing and throwing order are not hard and fast rules. There is legal allowance for throwing "out of turn" and I do take advantage of this often.

I've never flipped a disc in my life, or used a mini.

I am happy to abide by the time limit regarding searching for a disc. This is a rule where some unfairness can show up. It is very rare, in my experience, for players to clock their search, or to stop searching after three minutes have obviously passed. This rule is broken constantly and while it doesn't bother me either way, a group with no one pushing them might search ten minutes before finding a disc, gaining a score advantage over another player who took the penalty by the book. This possible scoring advantage is the reason that I've been quick to call my own disc lost on a couple of occasions.

I would never push aside tree branches or consider any plant or terrain an overriding safety concern. The lie and relief rules directly impact the throw and knowingly ignoring them is cheating.

Tapping the basket is silly. If you're so close that you see no point in putting, just pick up the disc and walk on. I like to hear the chains, so I make all of my putts. Also I've seen enough bizzarre happenings that I'd feel guilty skipping even the shortest drop-in.

I've never inked a disc. I play with a couple of discs with thorn holes.

I don't inhale substances that aren't included in the plain old dirty air, but I do sometimes carry whiskey in the autumn.

The practice throw rule is silly and I don't take it seriously as written. Practice throws are obviously unacceptable.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I hereby nominate Armus Patheticus to the PDGA rules committee.

opcorn:

This ought to be good. Show us how its done - I wish you best of luck. I will argue that there are logical and sensible reasons for everyone of those rules simply because there are enough disc golfers who are not sensible and logical to make them necessary for PDGA events.

 

[cheesethin]

...I will argue that there are logical and sensible reasons for everyone of those rules simply because there are enough disc golfers who are not sensible and logical to make them necessary for PDGA events.

Some rules are made for the lowest common denominator!

 

[Armus Patheticus]

I hereby nominate Armus Patheticus to the PDGA rules committee.

opcorn:

This ought to be good. Show us how its done - I wish you best of luck. I will argue that there are logical and sensible reasons for everyone of those rules simply because there are enough disc golfers who are not sensible and logical to make them necessary for PDGA events.

I agree with you.

I have no desire to change any rules, it's much more practical to ignore them. Understanding that rules cannot always serve right ends allows us to sometimes break them. Rigid adherence to codes is the safe default position of those who cannot grasp principles, so rules are at least useful. My point in mentioning flawed rules is that perfect enforcement will never follow imperfect rules. Perfect rules are not possible.

 

[ToddL]

I've never flipped a disc in my life, or used a mini.

Then what do you do?

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Then what do you do?

What do you reckon? Here's a hint: it's not against the rules.

 

[ToddL]

What do you reckon? Here's a hint: it's not against the rules.

I think the problem is that I'm making a serious response to your sarcastic response to a smartass comment. Somewhere along the line we lost track of what you actually do and what your actual opinions are.

 

[Consult20]

What do you reckon? Here's a hint: it's not against the rules.

I'm impressed that you've never thrown OB.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I agree with you.

I have no desire to change any rules, it's much more practical to ignore them. Understanding that rules cannot always serve right ends allows us to sometimes break them. Rigid adherence to codes is the safe default position of those who cannot grasp principles, so rules are at least useful. My point in mentioning flawed rules is that perfect enforcement will never follow imperfect rules. Perfect rules are not possible.

I would have fun with you on my card at a PDGA tourney. I really would.

 

[LateWesternSky]

I'm impressed that you've never thrown OB.

inb4armusmarksoblieswithadisc

 

[Armus Patheticus]

I would have fun with you on my card at a PDGA tourney. I really would.

I sure hope so. That's the point aint it?

 

[Armus Patheticus]

I'm impressed that you've never thrown OB.

I think I've thrown OB a time or two.

Latewesternsky is correct in guessing that I have marked lies with a disc in these cases. Golly what a lot of clever minds around.

Usually though, I don't mark the post OB lie at all. I have physical problems that make runups painful and pointless, so all of my throws are standstill. Marking the lie along OB is as arbitrary at simply taking my stance, so when I think it'll fly, I skip it.

 

[Nova P]

I'm impressed that you've never thrown OB.

Maybe they abandon every single OB throw, and replay from the existing lie before moving the disc.

I mean, it's technically possible. Dumb as a bag of hammers, but possible.

 

[Consult20]

I think I've thrown OB a time or two.

Latewesternsky is correct in guessing that I have marked lies with a disc in these cases. Golly what a lot of clever minds around.

Usually though, I don't mark the post OB lie at all. I have physical problems that make runups painful and pointless, so all of my throws are standstill. Marking the lie along OB is as arbitrary at simply taking my stance, so when I think it'll fly, I skip it.

So ridiculous.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

So ridiculous.

You are free sir, to ridicule.

The water cooler thread I started about law was essentially the same argument as this. Where does authority come from? It's an interesting question, at least to me. It has several answers. The most absolute authority that most of us deal with comes from physical law. It cannot be denied or disobeyed. It can be ignored, but not with impunity.

Other kinds of authority come from society, and they depend on social peer pressure and punitive threat for their power. This is weak authority, since any of us may voluntarily decline to be governed by our peers, and since we can take steps to avoid punishment. Indeed, to the extent to which the punitive arm of society is impotent, it's laws are nonexistent.

Other authority comes from a demonstration of and appeal to rightness. A person or entity that is shown repeatedly to be correct, good, just, or wise will accumulate authority without the use of threats or codification.

Authority can be innate too, as with parents and children. This authority is complex in practice, involving all the facets listed above, and will be eroded and built up in cycles depending on the patterns and choices in the lives of the parties involved.

It is my opinion that PDGA rules seek to serve the goals of rightness, fairness, elegance. That is why I said that they would be more willingly enforced if they were perfect. However, they are not perfect, and in the weak spots have no authority except that weakest of versions, the punitive/societal. The societal pressure to follow the weak rules is very low for several reasons: Many disc golfers are ignorant of the rules and cannot exert pressure. Many disc golfers share the same indifference to the same rules and choose to exert no pressure. It is easy to ignore many rules without often being noticed. This societal weakness undermines the already negligible power of punitive threat.

We can each choose which rules we will accept. I did not spout off in this thread because I like to boast about rule-breaking. I do not break rules because I get a kick out of bucking weak authority. I break rules because it is more interesting and stimulating for me to go through life according to the highest standards I can muster, and to build those standards independently of artifice. In playing PDGA events, my standards involve understanding the principles of the game and of fairness, and respecting my fellow man. Any rules that do not converge with these standards simply cease to exist. I could get away with breaking many more rules than I do and could brag about it here til the cows come home. But then I'd be worse than ridiculous, I'd be a fool.