Struggles from a Tournament Director

[Megiddo24]

Megiddo.....I don't know how involved you were in the process of getting that $10K for the new course, but I'm curious as to the process y'all went through prior to presenting it to your Parks Department.

The reason I ask is because we only have three courses here in Wilmington, but many more parks. My daughter plays tennis at two different parks (neither of which have a DG course, dammit) and every time I take her to practice I end up looking around talking to myself saying, "Dang....that would be a great spot for a basket. Could put the tee box right there and then set up for the next hole there, shoot over the creek to a perfect spot for another basket there...." (Hope I'm not the only one who does this sort of landscaping/course design at a park without a course.)

Anyway, I'd love to know what the best steps would be to start the process of maybe getting another course around town. If you have any info on it I'd love to hear.

A few things helped get the money. The park district has a great relationship with the Peoria Frisbee Club. I've spent over 250 hrs designing/building the new course since July and they wanted to reward the effort. They have seen that holding A-Tier tourneys have been a positive thing for the community. The TD has done a great job with the tourneys. And, our town prides itself on being voted top ten places to live in a family circle article and I let them know this would help. I presented a lot of info at a park district meeting about how good it can be for whole families to participate together, get exercise, bring in outside revenue, yada, yada,yada. Butt kissed Alot. I admit it . It worked. Very fortunate.

I let them know they didn't have to do any maintenance. It's 95% in the woods so no extra mowing and upkeep. I also got one of the park board members playing dg.

Hope some of that helps. I think it is rare what happened for me, but it can be done. Ask to go to a meeting to speak and have everything ready to present and be prepared for questions. Good luck! Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[Harvy B.]

I think a healthy mix of tiers and non-sanctioned events in a given area is essential for the sport to grow for a few reasons:
1. The higher the tier the higher the level of competition and the bigger draw of higher caliber players. These players are more likely to buy hotel rooms, and are generally willing to eat at restaurants (trust me I have spent many years behind the line as a cook and every full table counts). Granted out of towner's may leave with local money, but if the local crew couldn't keep it in town then tough luck (BTW, you all know how much fun it is to win an out of town tournament, so don't act like you haven't been that guy or wanted to be him). The A and B tier also tend to discourage the heavier dope-smoking beer swilling crowd and attract intense competitors who are focused on the game which is better for the sport. The higher level of play also shows the the newer/inexperienced player what is possible in this sport.

2. Lower tier events are fun and draw locals that are newer to the sport and may get hooked on the more intense level of play and continue playing and feeding more tournaments. Plus they are more relaxed yet still competitive platforms for players to hone their skills and not burn out. They are rated and have some sort of goodie bag for the am winners, (I think that Pro players are the only ones who should walk with cash in any tier or non-sanctioned event.)

3. Non-sanctioned events are a blast as long as you go into them expecting a keg-cup vibe. They attract the very new crowd and introduce them to the flow and joy of the tournament experience. To tell the truth non-sanctioned events got me to start playing sanctioned ones. I'm still newish to the sport and am working my way from intermediate to advanced, and some of the non-sanctioned events are great times to talk, get advice, and chat with the local pro's and big shots when they are relaxed, chilling, enjoying themselves and willing to talk.

My 2 cents on another point:
-Players packs are cool but should be basic and not detract from the pay-out for pro's/goodie bag for am's to much. A towel/mini, or a t-shirt, or some other little stuff is great, but getting/expecting a $45 players pack for a $30 entry fee is greedy and entitled, quit whining and play. (Plus I hate buying towels and mini's)

 

[ScottyLove]

Help...

Here are just some of the bullet points from my presentation that I give to park boards and CVB groups. Maybe these will you out:

- Disc golf has relatively low capital and maintenance costs compared with other recreational installations, is environmentally sound, is played year-round in all climates, and is enjoyed immediately even by beginners of all ages

- An 18-hole disc golf course with concrete tees, professional signs, and baskets can be purchased and installed for well under $15,000, less than the cost of a single tennis court, basketball court, or playground

My presentation is 10 slides with a LOT more details, but these come from the last slide after I've shown them growth statistics and other benefits to the community should a course be installed.

 

[GAMBLE]

Waaaaaah. So many whiners on this god d*** site. If you don't like guns, don't have one. If you dont like gay marriage, dont have one. If you don't like A or B tiers don't run one. Jesus, I play the biggest tournament I can play in almost every weekend. They get big.....when you have a quality product. It's a free market, figure it out, or host a non-sanctioned an event, which I've never enjoyed. To the guys running successful non sanctioned in The NorthEast, or Southern National area, hats off to you. You have to deliver a hell of a product to sell out despite the annoying s*** that come with a tourney that isn't PDGA. I drink every single round I play in (discretely), so I want to see a good non-sanctioned....but in Texas it just isn't there, and the quality product tourneys are ALL PDGA. Sadly zero exceptions. I mean ZERO . Whatever dollar or two you are whining about, it is well worth it in Texas. STFU, and lets play some competitive disc golf....or be a casual player whining about the PDGA. Win-win either way as the PDGA and disc golf keep growing, despite all the little girly complaints.

 

[The Hammer]

Waaaaaah. So many whiners on this god d*** site. If you don't like guns, don't have one. If you dont like gay marriage, dont have one. If you don't like A or B tiers don't run one. Jesus, I play the biggest tournament I can play in almost every weekend. They get big.....when you have a quality product. It's a free market, figure it out, or host a non-sanctioned an event, which I've never enjoyed. To the guys running successful non sanctioned in The NorthEast, or Southern National area, hats off to you. You have to deliver a hell of a product to sell out despite the annoying s*** that come with a tourney that isn't PDGA. I drink every single round I play in (discretely), so I want to see a good non-sanctioned....but in Texas it just isn't there, and the quality product tourneys are ALL PDGA. Sadly zero exceptions. I mean ZERO . Whatever dollar or two you are whining about, it is well worth it in Texas. STFU, and lets play some competitive disc golf....or be a casual player whining about the PDGA. Win-win either way as the PDGA and disc golf keep growing, despite all the little girly complaints.

Cool story, Boozy McGee.

 

[grodney]

But what other sport(s) with an amateur tournament format isn't struggling? I can't think of a single one.

Volleyball.

 

[bradharris]

But what other sport(s) with an amateur tournament format isn't struggling? I can't think of a single one.

The obvious example would be the NCAA. Every sport at every level has some sort of championship. Sure, there's some fame and potential fortune for some of the marquee sports, but most NCAA athletes are playing for the fun of it, expecting nothing in return (aside from those talented enough to earn a free education).

A more practical example might be softball. There are weekend tournaments that are very competitive, with each team fighting to win a trophy. Nothing more. The players are driven by competition, but also find enjoyment in the comradarie that goes along with it.

Or how about road races? Every weekend, thousands of runners take to the streets to race. A very small handful of those runners actually has any chance to walk away with any sort of prize. Usually the "players pack" is nothing more than a cheap t-shirt with the race logo on it.

 

[grodney]

Or how about road races? Every weekend, thousands of runners take to the streets to race. A very small handful of those runners actually has any chance to walk away with any sort of prize. Usually the "players pack" is nothing more than a cheap t-shirt with the race logo on it.

There was an article on the "road race" craze (including mudders and color runs) in a recent issue of Sports Illustrated. It touched on the "event management" companies that actually run many of these races -- yes, people making money simply by running single-shot sporting events.

That re-ignited my thought that if DG weren't so held down by the PDGA and by the change-fearing and entitled player base, the game would probably grow much faster by using such a model. In other words, give Event Management companies a reason (money) to run DG tournaments, and there would be high-quality tournaments everywhere all the time. And we wouldn't have to listen about the poor volunteer TDs working their butts off and getting burnt out.

 

[_MTL_]

In my opinion, what they are trying to do in Arkansas with a huge tour event with qualifiers and all that is a classic case of getting too big too soon.

The Vibram Open at one point was a non sanctioned event.

For years, the Virginia Open (Highly attended B Tier) was an A Tier.

Same thing for many other tour spots.

Just do things right and people will come.

 

[Smigles]

Waaaaaah. So many whiners on this god d*** site. If you don't like guns, don't have one. If you dont like gay marriage, dont have one. If you don't like A or B tiers don't run one.
...
but in Texas it just isn't there, and the quality product tourneys are ALL PDGA. Sadly zero exceptions. I mean ZERO .

Waaaaaaah quit crying, if you dont like the pdga tournaments make your own casual one.

:hfive:

 

[Nemmers]

Waaaaaah. So many whiners on this god d*** site. If you don't like guns, don't have one. If you dont like gay marriage, dont have one. If you don't like A or B tiers don't run one. Jesus, I play the biggest tournament I can play in almost every weekend. They get big.....when you have a quality product. It's a free market, figure it out, or host a non-sanctioned an event, which I've never enjoyed. To the guys running successful non sanctioned in The NorthEast, or Southern National area, hats off to you. You have to deliver a hell of a product to sell out despite the annoying s*** that come with a tourney that isn't PDGA. I drink every single round I play in (discretely), so I want to see a good non-sanctioned....but in Texas it just isn't there, and the quality product tourneys are ALL PDGA. Sadly zero exceptions. I mean ZERO . Whatever dollar or two you are whining about, it is well worth it in Texas. STFU, and lets play some competitive disc golf....or be a casual player whining about the PDGA. Win-win either way as the PDGA and disc golf keep growing, despite all the little girly complaints.

Easy to call people "whiners" when you've enjoyed playing in but never tried out the headache that comes with directing A/B tier tournaments. Sounds a lot like a pilot looking down his nose at the mechanic he overhears complaining about the plane being broken and chastising him because the plane is "so easy to fly."

Don't-like-it-don't-direct is an easy attitude to take when all you have to do is show up, pay the entry fee, and enjoy the ammenties provided, but in practical application it's a lazy shortcut to thinking that adds nothing to the conversation and is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

But then, you're a member of the PDGA and paying your dues gives you the right to complain and offer no solution(s). Those dues don't buy respect or impress anybody, however.

 

[DavidSauls]

Are there any tournament directors out there having second thoughts about making their events B-Tiers or A-Tiers due to the cost?

I am slowly getting frustrated with the cost of events to sanction at the higher tiers. I was planning on hosting an A-Tier this upcoming year 2014 until I looked into it. $2000 added cash minimum to pro purse, $100 sanction fee, $4 per player fee! Seriously, the higher the tier to more fees?

I do support the PDGA, but have my little issues. Something has got to change people.

Thoughts?

As to the original topic....

The $2,000 added cash isn't a fee, it's a higher standard. While I'm not sure the ideal amount should be, it certainly seems reasonable that the minimum added cash for an A-tier should be significantly higher than a B-tier. Enough to make it a reasonable draw to Pros. Otherwise, it's just a B-tier with a loftier label.

The sanctioning fee is just a $25 increase over a B-tier, and with the presumed increased attendance, the higher entry fees, other money involved, it's negligible. The per-player fee is $1 more per player, and should come out of the player entry fees (which are generally much more than $1 higher than entry fees for B-tiers).

So I don't see the problem. IF you want to run an A-tier. If not, you can always run a B- or even C-tier and still make it a really big event.

 

[Harrishabitat]

:clap:

Cool story, Boozy McGee.

 

[kinger]

I'm confused about the opinions that players packs or "something" shouldn't be a part of the lower divisions entry fees. As a Rec / Intermediate type player in his late 30's who will likely never compete for cash in the upper divisions I do expect to receive a little something for my entry fee. The handful of tourney's I've played in around here have much higher numbers in the lower divisions compared to the higher ones so our entry fees are worthwhile to the tournament payout. I see no reason a small players pack shouldn't be offered to those who have no intention of cashing in on winnings.
I don't expect to get a pack worth as much as or more than my entry fee, and I also have no problem understanding that my money goes to the overall betterment of the game.

But I personally would not pay entry fees just for a round or two of throwing plastic in a tournament setting.

 

[Harrishabitat]

I'm confused about the opinions that players packs or "something" shouldn't be a part of the lower divisions entry fees. As a Rec / Intermediate type player in his late 30's who will likely never compete for cash in the upper divisions I do expect to receive a little something for my entry fee. The handful of tourney's I've played in around here have much higher numbers in the lower divisions compared to the higher ones so our entry fees are worthwhile to the tournament payout. I see no reason a small players pack shouldn't be offered to those who have no intention of cashing in on winnings.
I don't expect to get a pack worth as much as or more than my entry fee, and I also have no problem understanding that my money goes to the overall betterment of the game.

But I personally would not pay entry fees just for a round or two of throwing plastic in a tournament setting.

Um... you got to play for your entry fee???

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm confused about the opinions that players packs or "something" shouldn't be a part of the lower divisions entry fees. As a Rec / Intermediate type player in his late 30's who will likely never compete for cash in the upper divisions I do expect to receive a little something for my entry fee. The handful of tourney's I've played in around here have much higher numbers in the lower divisions compared to the higher ones so our entry fees are worthwhile to the tournament payout. I see no reason a small players pack shouldn't be offered to those who have no intention of cashing in on winnings.
I don't expect to get a pack worth as much as or more than my entry fee, and I also have no problem understanding that my money goes to the overall betterment of the game.

But I personally would not pay entry fees just for a round or two of throwing plastic in a tournament setting.

Um... you got to play for your entry fee???

Exactly.

You pay to play in a tournament, you get to play in a tournament. I'm not a fan of the "other sport" comparisons, but in lots of other sports you pay to play....and that's it.

I'm also not a fan of players packs, and I don't usually win anything. I pay $40 to enter, they give me $15 worth of something I may or may not want. I'd rather pay $25 to enter and not be given anything; I can decide whether to spend $15 on something I want, or just keep it.

I would gladly pay for someone to organize a tournament, not to play "a round" but 2-4 rounds in an organized tournament, with all the work that entails. I love the competition. I'm not sure I would pay the current higher fees which are jacked up to cover players packs and payouts--at least, not often---but I'd gladly pay $20-$25 for a no-players-pack, no-payout event, well-run on a good course.

 

[Harrishabitat]

Exactly.

You pay to play in a tournament, you get to play in a tournament. I'm not a fan of the "other sport" comparisons, but in lots of other sports you pay to play....and that's it.

I'm also not a fan of players packs, and I don't usually win anything. I pay $40 to enter, they give me $15 worth of something I may or may not want. I'd rather pay $25 to enter and not be given anything; I can decide whether to spend $15 on something I want, or just keep it.

I would gladly pay for someone to organize a tournament, not to play "a round" but 2-4 rounds in an organized tournament, with all the work that entails. I love the competition. I'm not sure I would pay the current higher fees which are jacked up to cover players packs and payouts--at least, not often---but I'd gladly pay $20-$25 for a no-players-pack, no-payout event, well-run on a good course.

I agree with you 90% I don't want another tee shirt that I will never wear or a water bottle but a tournament stamped disc I do like because I hang them on my wall and have the nice collection going.

 

[DavidSauls]

I agree with you 90% I don't want another tee shirt that I will never wear or a water bottle but a tournament stamped disc I do like because I hang them on my wall and have the nice collection going.

You mean 100%. I said it was something I "may or may not want".

Around here it's common for the players pack to be a voucher, which at least means I can get something I'll use. I'd still rather go with the lower entry, and perhaps buy that tournament stamped disc with my savings.

 

[kinger]

^somewhat agree on a few points.
For $15 or under I'd have little to no problem paying to play in a tournament with no player pack (in fact I've done so numerous times), anything more than that and I'd likely not bother unless it was a charity type event that went to a good cause.

My point being that I feel something more than "getting to play for your entry fee" needs to be offered to draw a good amount of the rec / lower tier caliber players or else they'll see little to no reason to want to see their entry fee to to the top tier payouts. That's my thought, and maybe it's completely off base...........Vouchers to local stores or on site sales, perhaps the local club plastic to select from would be ideal. I'm not talking about huge merchandise but something as simple as a stamped neutral midrange that 90% of players can use for example.

I don't see the value as a rec / intermediate player in paying $35 and up to "officially compete" at a course I can play at no cost. Agreed a well run tournament is worth a cost to a player of my skill level, but as I said above I put that cost at $15 and under....$20 maximum.

I do see the value for the more skilled competitors however, and at that level you probably have piles of discs, shirts, minis, etc. at home and wouldn't want to be bothered with more "useless swag" this is merely my perspective.

~Cheers

 

[NPCTour]

After reading through the many comments: It dose pose a question to myself and other TD's out there. What kind of players are you trying to attract? A/B tiers show your trying to attract outside players to come to your area and play. If your event has a large amount of cash added, you might get a few traveling professionals IF your event falls in line to where they are traveling.

As for the players packs, I typically do the pick your own players pack at my events. It's pretty simple that way. Players get to collect whatever they want from the vender and come out happy. I used to run 5K races a lot and they always give you a t-shirt and promotional goodie bags. The payout might be top 50 runners get a trophy and 1-3 get paid money. This would never work in Disc Golf.....we have grown accustomed to more, more, more.

I like the idea of lower entry fee and a players pack. I also use the local cities to help fund my events who ask for a hotel report and player info (not email or phone numbers), but something that shows how many players came and where they stayed. They love numbers and tax dollars.