TD not paying vendor

[DavidSauls]

I don't know about elsewhere, but around here, I've never heard of a written contract, nor pre-payment, between a vendor and a TD. And I've been on both sides of that deal.

But, generally, they know each other, or at least know of each other.

The accusation starting this thread is shocking. If true, which we don't know, though it probably is. In part, shocking because it would be so rare.

 

[ToddL]

I don't know about elsewhere, but around here, I've never heard of a written contract, nor pre-payment, between a vendor and a TD. And I've been on both sides of that deal.

Several years ago, before I was involved in the club, we had a local outside vendor request to vend a local tournament (I think it was the Firecracker Fling tournaments). The president and the business owner went through something like 10-15 drafts of a contract to try to nail down the numbers of who provides what, who pays what, who gets what profit margin, etc. And even after the contracts were signed, there were still disputes after the tournament about how much was actually owed. Nobody got royally screwed out of anything, but there were hurt feelings and a strong disincentive to ever use an outside vendor again.

I think the modern system in place by a lot of the online retailers is much stronger, and there haven't been any disputes that I've heard of. But a handshake deal with your buddy who has a few discs in the back of his car leaves open the possibility of someone getting screwed.

 

[harr0140]

Here if a TD isnt already a vendor they would charge someone a table fee to vend basically and sometimes 10% of the revenues brought in for giving them the opportunity to sell their product. It might be $50-200 cash and possibly include some sort of prize donation.

 

[SonicGuy]

Good luck with that. All the TD has to say is that he had no agreement to pay the vendor anything and that he was under the impression that the vendor was donating his goods/services to support the club and to get free advertising for his business. TD's word against the Vendors unless the vendor can come up with some kind of documentation or witnesses proving that he was to be payed for his products or services rendered at the event.

Could be the TD is a dirt bag, but in the real world the good guy doesn't always win.

Also could be that the TD feels that the Vendor did not uphold his end of the deal for some reason. Did he promise premium plastic but delivered base line for example. We are only getting one side of the story here.

I learned a long time ago that there are usually 3 sides to every dispute. Each of the two parties have their own take on what happened and then the full truth is somewhere in between.

Completely and utterly wrong. Go try that "donation" angle and see how fast you get laughed at in court.

 

[dehaas]

I'm not sure where I stand on vendors having to pay to be the guy providing merch.

If you have a couple of vendors in the area and want competitive bids I guess it makes sense but I look at it this way:

Person A wants to run an event but doesn't have the capital or take the financial risk of an unexpected turnout. Because they can't or choose not to provide payout themselves, they need somebody to provide that service for them. That's where person B comes in. They've done the part that person A can't/won't do. Yeah the vendor makes some cash on the difference between sticker price and their wholesale price, but they're providing a service that somebody else wasn't able to.

 

[JRW III]

Rather than going the contract route for future tournaments, I would request a significant deposit prior to vending. Something like 90% of estimated payout based on the pre-registered number from the day before. Should not be an issue for the TD since he should have already collected all of the cash by then.

 

[JRW III]

I'm not sure where I stand on vendors having to pay to be the guy providing merch.

If you have a couple of vendors in the area and want competitive bids I guess it makes sense but I look at it this way:

Person A wants to run an event but doesn't have the capital or take the financial risk of an unexpected turnout. Because they can't or choose not to provide payout themselves, they need somebody to provide that service for them. That's where person B comes in. They've done the part that person A can't/won't do. Yeah the vendor makes some cash on the difference between sticker price and their wholesale price, but they're providing a service that somebody else wasn't able to.

Person A (TD) is providing a value for person B (Vendor). The TD is creating a demand for a large quantity, to be executed at a single point in time. Think of it as a pooling of players together to go in on a large order together to get a volume discount. The amount of this value would be determined by market forces, with the online retailers basically setting up the minimum price since at anytime/anywhere a TD can use their services.

For the tournaments I run, we self vend. We rely on the wholesale/retail difference to fund the tournaments. While we do not vend other tournaments, I could see us doing it and giving back 20% to the TD/Tournament.

 

[John Rock]

Events I have done I've used an outside vendor. Someone I know and trust who has proven to be a fair and upstanding person. We get together Saturday evening with the scorekeeper, figure out how many players in each division, payout for each division, fill out vouchers, pay the vendor their price for merch, and then the vendor gives back a percentage (usually 10%) to add to the Pro side of the event. Everyone is happy.

 

[JTacoma03]

Yes, I agreed to do the payout merch for the am payouts. Which I have not been paid for from the td.

Unfortunately I do not have a contract. I have been doing this for years now without ever having to have one and never been a problem. Definitely going to have to have one from now on! Which is sad to think. It blows my mind someone would even consider doing this.

Does anyone else think this should be something the pdga should consider changing and adding to their rules to protect vendors? Its not right that the pdga wont even take away his td rights. Basically their allowing a criminal to continue to be a criminal?

Has anyone one gone through small claims court? Have any insight for me?

No.

The PDGA shouldn't get involved in all of the transactions by all of the TDs. That's thousands of events, and negotiations with merch vendors, food vendors, course owners, government agencies, and others. In no way does the PDGA have the resources to govern that.

Of all the things the PDGA does, and things I wish they do, this would be way down the list....if on the list, at all.

We have laws to deal with criminals.

First @Birdie30 - sorry this happened to you. It sucks that you're trying to make this TD's events better by adding value and he screws you (if it happened how you say it did obviously, this is only one side of the story that we're hearing).

I absolutely agree with DavidSauls et al, the PDGA should not touch this with a 39-and-a-half-foot-pole. Outside of their marketable products (aka the Tour), they should stay as minimalist and hands-off in terms of enforcing/policing local tournament procedures. They should just be using resources in that vein to verify that sanctioned events are properly within guidelines, and no more.

I don't want to be "that guy" - but you seem smart enough to have worked out a creative and agreeable arrangement with the TD, you knew in the back of your mind that there was a risk to going no-contract and low-key. It just bit you this time. I'm totally guilty of doing the same thing, I've been stung by people taking advantage of my desire to not get caught in bureaucracy too many times in the past...and now people get annoyed when I want things done by the book.


Sorry this happened, but the PDGA cannot be in the business of picking sides on things like this.

 

[Jimb]

Was this an ADGT event?





With apologies to the op for the drift.

 

[SonicGuy]

So in other words, all the PDGA is here for is to collect a fee. Already knew that but I enjoy whenever their people come on here and admit it.

 

[Celos]

So in other words, all the PDGA is here for is to collect a fee. Already knew that but I enjoy whenever their people come on here and admit it.

There's a wasp's nest near a basket on a local course. I contacted the PDGA to get down here with a broom and got no response! What a bunch of wastes of space.

 

[DoWork]

Yes, I agreed to do the payout merch for the am payouts. Which I have not been paid for from the td.

Unfortunately I do not have a contract. I have been doing this for years now without ever having to have one and never been a problem. Definitely going to have to have one from now on! Which is sad to think. It blows my mind someone would even consider doing this.

Does anyone else think this should be something the pdga should consider changing and adding to their rules to protect vendors? Its not right that the pdga wont even take away his td rights. Basically their allowing a criminal to continue to be a criminal?

Has anyone one gone through small claims court? Have any insight for me?

Public smear campaigns are free and lots of fun. Keep it factual and you're good to go, also everyone else will know not to deal with him.

 

[kenjiac]

I'm not sure where I stand on vendors having to pay to be the guy providing merch.

If you have a couple of vendors in the area and want competitive bids I guess it makes sense but I look at it this way:

Person A wants to run an event but doesn't have the capital or take the financial risk of an unexpected turnout. Because they can't or choose not to provide payout themselves, they need somebody to provide that service for them. That's where person B comes in. They've done the part that person A can't/won't do. Yeah the vendor makes some cash on the difference between sticker price and their wholesale price, but they're providing a service that somebody else wasn't able to.

Person A (TD) is providing a value for person B (Vendor). The TD is creating a demand for a large quantity, to be executed at a single point in time. Think of it as a pooling of players together to go in on a large order together to get a volume discount. The amount of this value would be determined by market forces, with the online retailers basically setting up the minimum price since at anytime/anywhere a TD can use their services.

For the tournaments I run, we self vend. We rely on the wholesale/retail difference to fund the tournaments. While we do not vend other tournaments, I could see us doing it and giving back 20% to the TD/Tournament.

We used to self vend payout as a club. But being a not for profit and not wanting to deal with sales tax we moved to using a local vendor once he had his business established. It's a win/win, he get a rush of business at a tourney he's there to play in anyway, we get a 15% discount so are still making funds for the club to be able to provide the tourney. We could get better online discount. Marshall Street gives you 20% discount to do payouts but we like to support our locals.

To the OP so sorry this happened to you. That blows man.

 

[Birdie30]

Thank you everyone for your comments. I don't think the pdga should get involved with the vendor side. But I do think there should be some sort of punishment for the TD. Right now their basically just going to allow it to keep happing. Sure I could smear his name all over and people more then likely wont play his tournaments. But years from now who will remember?
I hope that this will end well by getting him to pay. I would hate to have to chalk this up as an expensive learning experience. Definitely will have to change the way I do business from now on. Guess you cant trust anyone these days. I'll keep you posted on the out come.

 

[BionicRib]

Just out of curiosity what would happen to the td if the vendor got paid but never showed up with the merchandise?.....

 

[JC17393]

Thank you everyone for your comments. I don't think the pdga should get involved with the vendor side. But I do think there should be some sort of punishment for the TD. Right now their basically just going to allow it to keep happing. Sure I could smear his name all over and people more then likely wont play his tournaments. But years from now who will remember?
I hope that this will end well by getting him to pay. I would hate to have to chalk this up as an expensive learning experience. Definitely will have to change the way I do business from now on. Guess you cant trust anyone these days. I'll keep you posted on the out come.

And if the PDGA stepped in and suspended the TD for a period (a month? three months? until the debt is paid?), wouldn't the bolded still happen? I know of TDs that were put on suspension for failure to pay their tournament fees. Those suspensions go on a publicly available document on PDGA.com. They pay their fees, their suspension is lifted, they go on running tournaments if they want. Would anyone remember or care that they were on that list five years ago? I doubt it.

And you're contradicting yourself. For the PDGA to get into the practice of disciplining TDs for failure to pay third party vendors, they'd need rules and regulations governing those third party agreements. By default, if you want them to punish TDs for failing to pay, they need to have rules and governance over those arrangements to begin with. They can't both be uninvolved with third party vendors and involved with discipline tied to dealing with vendors.

 

[roblee]

Providing details of what tournament this is may help to get informed feedback. Currently no way to make an informed opinion without documentation of an actual event. I looked at "birdie30.com" as referenced by OP and didn't see a dg connection. This is a serious accusation with no way to validate. \_O_/

 

[DavidSauls]

And if the PDGA stepped in and suspended the TD for a period (a month? three months? until the debt is paid?), wouldn't the bolded still happen? I know of TDs that were put on suspension for failure to pay their tournament fees. Those suspensions go on a publicly available document on PDGA.com. They pay their fees, their suspension is lifted, they go on running tournaments if they want. Would anyone remember or care that they were on that list five years ago? I doubt it.

And you're contradicting yourself. For the PDGA to get into the practice of disciplining TDs for failure to pay third party vendors, they'd need rules and regulations governing those third party agreements. By default, if you want them to punish TDs for failing to pay, they need to have rules and governance over those arrangements to begin with. They can't both be uninvolved with third party vendors and involved with discipline tied to dealing with vendors.

Not to mention a procedure and staff to investigate claims. Just because a vendor says he wasn't paid, or wasn't paid in full, isn't enough for the PDGA to suspend him. What if the TD says it's not true---which he probably will---is the PDGA going to investigate? Demand documents?

And will this go beyond vendors, to others the TD does business with?

For, what, 4,000 events, worldwide?

I just don't see how it's practical.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

The PDGA simply doesn't belong in a mess like this.

This is a simple business agreement between the TD and the vendor, and it should stay between them . If either party feels wronged in a legal sense, let then they should take legal action.

If the wronged party can't get satisfaction via the legal system, they can let their friends and acquaintances know of the others douchebaggery.
Most of us know plenty of others in our local DG communities...word about the DB will spread pretty quickly.