The Twitch of the Hips

[RoDeO]

Paul doesn't twitch until he is in strong brace with his front hip rising. The only way the butt can turn like that is if you are braced on the front side resisting going targetward pushing away from the target.

Then why does the video show his hip turning into brace-

 

[RoDeO]

Here's something on want you to try Sidewinder- practice a swing where you have zero turn before your brace. Literally no rotation whatsoever until all your weight has shifted and that front leg is coming up signifying a good strong brace. Try thst for me. I will bet everything that you cant engage your hips properly. Practice what you preach, go and do it and prove me wrong.

 

[Happablap]

I just want to say thank you to all who have participated in this thread. It has been immensely enjoyable. And I am only halfway through.

 

[bsammons]

I will be honest in that I don't know exactly the names of every muscle in the body and how they work but when I practice throwing distance I feel a lot in my gluteus and hip muscles. I also feel it in my quads, lower back and lats and deltoid on the throwing side. There's really a lot of muscles involved but those are the ones I feel the most when I throw. My legs are usually the tiredest after throwing. I have noticed that I have gotten larger more defined muscles around my butt, upper legs and hips since I started playing. I don't really feel anything in my arm, I just feel like it's being pulled through.

It matters to know about when hip rotation begins because a lot of new players all arm their disc and have a hard time getting the hips involved. If you get the hips involved at the right time you can feel how the body can pull the disc rather than wonder if your hips do anything. I started pkaying right and threw all arm and had a hard time getting the hips to engage. Then I threw left and instantly felt the difference.

The axis of rotation is around the spine area.

To be more specific, I meant biomechanically. Not necessarily what muscles fire, but what muscles are doing and in what direction.
2. I don't know how many times I can say this but. Hips don't just "get involved". Rotation doesn't drive the force.

If rotation was the key, then we shouldn't plant 90ish degrees from the target because that inhibits rotation through the throw.

Look at the free body diagram I posted a while ago. The throw is like pulling a post out of the ground, just dynamic. You don't spin your hips into pulling a post out of the ground. You leverage your trail side, using it as a weight to pull the disc, with equal and opposite tension, towards your target.
3. If rotation was around the spine, then how does the brace work? Because rotation around the spine would mean the brace would be directly under the spine-if you look at an overhead shot of the throw, you'll see the rotation is around the brace


I've said it once and I'll say it again. Rotation is not the goal. Rotation is a byproduct of using your trail side as leverage, like pulling a post out of the ground, to pull the disc, mainly with your lats, towards the target.

 

[RandyC]

Then why does the video show his hip turning into brace-

https://youtu.be/ZvvF6eW-by8?t=130

 

[RoDeO]

To be more specific, I meant biomechanically. Not necessarily what muscles fire, but what muscles are doing and in what direction.
2. I don't know how many times I can say this but. Hips don't just "get involved". Rotation doesn't drive the force.

If rotation was the key, then we shouldn't plant 90ish degrees from the target because that inhibits rotation through the throw.

Look at the free body diagram I posted a while ago. The throw is like pulling a post out of the ground, just dynamic. You don't spin your hips into pulling a post out of the ground. You leverage your trail side, using it as a weight to pull the disc, with equal and opposite tension, towards your target.
3. If rotation was around the spine, then how does the brace work? Because rotation around the spine would mean the brace would be directly under the spine-if you look at an overhead shot of the throw, you'll see the rotation is around the brace


I've said it once and I'll say it again. Rotation is not the goal. Rotation is a byproduct of using your trail side as leverage, like pulling a post out of the ground, to pull the disc, mainly with your lats, towards the target.

Rotation is around the spine. Watch where his hips and shoulders rotate. It's around the spine area, not the brace leg. The brace helps to drive or power the rotation amd, keep you from falling over.

 

[SaROCaM]

Rotation is around the spine. Watch where his hips and shoulders rotate. It's around the spine area, not the brace leg. The brace helps to drive or power the rotation amd, keep you from falling over.

1) You are focusing on a component. Think of the entire body as a system.

2) The bird's eye view of the GIF might be good for you since it takes away that rear knee movement that seems to be confusing you. Watch the sequence: shift, then plant/brace, then front leg compression/extension providing power.

 

[RowingBoats]

Rotation is around the spine. Watch where his hips and shoulders rotate. It's around the spine area, not the brace leg. The brace helps to drive or power the rotation amd, keep you from falling over.

Again, with a pedantic snipe at a concept that no one is arguing. Yes, the torso is going to rotate with the spine, what alternative is there with a human body?

The point is that the spine is not the axis of the disc golf swing, and this is clearly the case in your gif.

 

[bsammons]

The gif you posted clearly shows the right hip and glute stay in place. I reiterate-the axis of rotation is not the spine. It's the brace.

Rodeo I'm going to present you with a grim reality that appears not to have set in. Nobody's "staying with you". Nobody's listening to you and changing their form because of something you say. Nobody thinks you're right but yourself.

You continually insist reality is something different than it actually is, and point out things you believe are logical fallacies and just state that they aren't true with no concrete evidence.

You sometimes even bring evidence forth that doesn't prove your point but try and utilize it as proof. You're in a state of denial about the actual physics of the throw.

It's taken me years to get to the level of understanding I'm at now. I'm trying to save you from the same fate, but you insist on not letting me. If you want to ignore my advice as well as everyone else's on this forum you have the freedom to do so. But you aren't changing anyone's mind, and if you ignore everyone here's advice, then you're going to continue to live in your own little world, fueled by elective ignorance and your pride.

 

[SaROCaM]

Here's another explanation of why rotating from the back leg is suboptimal. Note that he demonstrates you can still swing that way and get decent results, but shows you can get better results the other way (also supported by biomechanical research.) This addresses your most common objection of "then why can I throw 350' doing it this way?"

Initiating rotation with the rear is like the pushing forward he describes.

The drill at 5:44 is a continuation of the drill I described earlier. Note the sequence: shift to the front leg, then power through.

 

[timothy42b]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Rotation is not the goal. Rotation is a byproduct of using your trail side as leverage, like pulling a post out of the ground, to pull the disc, mainly with your lats, towards the target.

I don't think that's correct, or at least it's incomplete. It is the goal.

Rotation must happen. It's what assembles the package and produces the speed in the distal element of the chain.

Rotation in other sports is produced by two mechanisms. A linear motion is stopped by the off center brace, and the momentum transfers to the rotation. Secondly, rotation is powered directly by one foot pushing and one foot pulling. The force plate videos show pretty clearly that the direct rotation forces are larger than the linear especially for the long ball competitors.

I think what you mean by "not the goal" is that it is counterproductive to focus on trying to do it.

What the ratio of those two elements is for disc golf won't be known until we get some throwers on those force plates.

 

[bsammons]

I don't think that's correct, or at least it's incomplete. It is the goal.

Rotation must happen. It's what assembles the package and produces the speed in the distal element of the chain.

Rotation in other sports is produced by two mechanisms. A linear motion is stopped by the off center brace, and the momentum transfers to the rotation. Secondly, rotation is powered directly by one foot pushing and one foot pulling. The force plate videos show pretty clearly that the direct rotation forces are larger than the linear especially for the long ball competitors.

I think what you mean by "not the goal" is that it is counterproductive to focus on trying to do it.

What the ratio of those two elements is for disc golf won't be known until we get some throwers on those force plates.

By not the goal I'm saying rotation is not the end-all-be-all.
Rotation will happen, of course. If it seemed like I meant it won't happen then I apologize because that certainly isn't what I meant.
My point was, so many people say "man the pros get their hips into it" and think there's some secret sauce with the hips that will make them throw 250 feet further. It's not "secret sauce", it's leveraging the trail side to launch the disc - equal and opposite. Because the arm moves linearly and the brace force is, in great part, laterally, then that by nature will lead to rotation. But the goal is leverage, not rotation.

There's a quote from House of Cards referring to someone who chose to chase after money. He says "he decided to chase money instead of power. He found the money, but if he had chased power instead, he would have had power and money"
Leverage leads to rotation. So yes, rotation happens and yes, it's important. But it's an effect of proper leverage, not something to try your hardest to achieve.

 

[RowingBoats]

I don't think that's correct, or at least it's incomplete. It is the goal.

Rotation must happen. It's what assembles the package and produces the speed in the distal element of the chain.

Rotation in other sports is produced by two mechanisms. A linear motion is stopped by the off center brace, and the momentum transfers to the rotation. Secondly, rotation is powered directly by one foot pushing and one foot pulling. The force plate videos show pretty clearly that the direct rotation forces are larger than the linear especially for the long ball competitors.

I think what you mean by "not the goal" is that it is counterproductive to focus on trying to do it.

What the ratio of those two elements is for disc golf won't be known until we get some throwers on those force plates.

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think I agree with this. Rotation 'not being the goal' is the case before the brace. The kick off of the rear leg will, under incorrect perspectives, appear to start the hips rotating. This is a sort of illusion, this rotation is not 'built' upon to power the swing, it is incidental to our biology.

The powerful rotation begins after the brace, and feels more like the lead hip pushing back, not like the rear hip coming around to the front. I can throw a disc fairly far with a flat footed, intentional rotation from the rear hip, but the well of power under the other paradigm is undeniable once you feel it.

 

[RoDeO]

1) You are focusing on a component. Think of the entire body as a system.

2) The bird's eye view of the GIF might be good for you since it takes away that rear knee movement that seems to be confusing you. Watch the sequence: shift, then plant/brace, then front leg compression/extension providing power.

I do look at it as a whole system. I realize that all of the acceleration and culmination of power happens on the front brace leg. My point is that in order to get to all of that you have to initiate certain motions and put yourself in the correct sequence so that it comes to pass. For example- you don't get the powerful torso rotation you see in the birds eye view that happens on the brace leg without the initiation of hip rotation coming into brace yet before the brace actually happens.. You don't get powerful torso rotation without lag or separation between hips and shoulders.

 

[RoDeO]

The gif you posted clearly shows the right hip and glute stay in place. I reiterate-the axis of rotation is not the spine. It's the brace.

Rodeo I'm going to present you with a grim reality that appears not to have set in. Nobody's "staying with you". Nobody's listening to you and changing their form because of something you say. Nobody thinks you're right but yourself.

You continually insist reality is something different than it actually is, and point out things you believe are logical fallacies and just state that they aren't true with no concrete evidence.

You sometimes even bring evidence forth that doesn't prove your point but try and utilize it as proof. You're in a state of denial about the actual physics of the throw.

It's taken me years to get to the level of understanding I'm at now. I'm trying to save you from the same fate, but you insist on not letting me. If you want to ignore my advice as well as everyone else's on this forum you have the freedom to do so. But you aren't changing anyone's mind, and if you ignore everyone here's advice, then you're going to continue to live in your own little world, fueled by elective ignorance and your pride.

If what you say is true then why isnt the axis of the shoulders pivoting around the brace leg? The shoulders are unwinding, so to speak, around the same axis of the hips and torso. If it were true that the axis was around the brace leg then one should be able to draw a line straight down the axis or pivot point of the shoulders down to the foot. But thats not what we see. What we see is a perfect overview of the line going exactly down the center of his back around his spine all the way down to his waist area.

 

[bsammons]

If what you say is true then why isnt the axis of the shoulders pivoting around the brace leg? The shoulders are unwinding, so to speak, around the same axis of the hips and torso. If it were true that the axis was around the brace leg then one should be able to draw a line straight down the axis or pivot point of the shoulders down to the foot. But thats not what we see. What we see is a perfect overview of the line going exactly down the center of his back around his spine all the way down to his waist area.

Again you totally ignore 90% of my post but I'm invested at this point so I'll bite. Again.
It's a tilted axis. An athletic tilt balanced over the brace leg. The trail side on one side, the arm and exterior of the shoulder balanced out on the other. If rotation is what you seek, then look at his left hip. It practically stays in place. It's leveraging the side with the arm, again, balanced over the brace. The brace HAS to be the axis of rotation. It's literally grounded. But regardless.

Rotation is NOT the goal.

I'll post a video explaining it this afternoon if you'd like. But you're just going to pick one tiny detail and try and prove it wrong when your fundamental concept of the throw is, again, wrong.

 

[RowingBoats]

Rodeo,

If you stand facing an intended line squared up, and press off of what is normally your rear foot, then rotate the opposite direction you will end up swinging, can you brace that momentum and complete your swing? I am not saying this is more efficient, but it completely removes the idea of rotating before the brace, and at least for me gives the same overall feeling.

 

[RowingBoats]

Rodeo,

If you stand facing an intended line squared up, and press off of what is normally your rear foot, then rotate the opposite direction you will end up swinging, can you brace that momentum and complete your swing? I am not saying this is more efficient, but it completely removes the idea of rotating before the brace, and at least for me gives the same overall feeling.

Meh, this actually takes too much balance and doesn't allow enough of a back swing, so probably won't help never mind. I'm able to get a decent swing but probably more complex than other ways of describing it that have been presented already.

The one-leg drill really is the single best drill lol.

 

[RandyC]

If what you say is true then why isnt the axis of the shoulders pivoting around the brace leg? The shoulders are unwinding, so to speak, around the same axis of the hips and torso. If it were true that the axis was around the brace leg then one should be able to draw a line straight down the axis or pivot point of the shoulders down to the foot. But thats not what we see. What we see is a perfect overview of the line going exactly down the center of his back around his spine all the way down to his waist area.

Because we are throwing with one arm and not with two. Let you your arm hang from the socket and you´ll find your low point. If you put your arms together the low point is in the middle.

 

[RoDeO]

Again you totally ignore 90% of my post but I'm invested at this point so I'll bite. Again.
It's a tilted axis. An athletic tilt balanced over the brace leg. The trail side on one side, the arm and exterior of the shoulder balanced out on the other. If rotation is what you seek, then look at his left hip. It practically stays in place. It's leveraging the side with the arm, again, balanced over the brace. The brace HAS to be the axis of rotation. It's literally grounded. But regardless.

Rotation is NOT the goal.

I'll post a video explaining it this afternoon if you'd like. But you're just going to pick one tiny detail and try and prove it wrong when your fundamental concept of the throw is, again, wrong.

Watch the equal and opposite moves of the left and right side of the body. They both end up where the other starts out. If we draw a line from top to bottom around that axis it goes exactly down the spine.