Tournament Profits

[moose-mdg]

I hope it comes across as someone who is passionate and trying to defeat incorrect statements.

This Guy is TOP NOTCH....wish i was not so busy with life and the kids because i would get out and play in his tourneys ...He is a great asset to have and im glad im local!.....you guys keep up the argument ...just wanted to say that

 

[Dave242]

Talking about "expected", the PDGA expects and the players expect $500 min added to the Pro purse and 100%+ payout for all. The $1300 you raised covers the added cash and tournament expenses (and/or money comes from the Am side of the tournament).

 

[_MTL_]

You can't understand that?

The statment made was that it was expected that pro added cash comes from ams.

So if I can meet the standards without doing that, how is that expected?

 

[Dave242]

That is why I apologized to you and modified Mashnut's statement to "and/or". You must have missed that.

What Mashnut was saying is that added cash comes from somewhere. It comes from a sponsor or multiple sponsors.

If the TD/club is a sponsor, one of the primary ways that they make their money is from buying merchandise (or having it donated) and reselling it at a profit (selling it into players packs is part of this). One of the main venues that they do this is at tournaments. Do you agree with this? What part/s do you disagree with?

 

[_MTL_]

You are correct in your assessment.

I did miss your apology. Sorry about that. I'm glad you see that he was very wrong in his statement.

 

[Osmo]

You are correct in your assessment.

I did miss your apology. Sorry about that. I'm glad you see that he was very wrong in his statement.

he wasnt VERY wrong though if all he had to do was add "/or" to the sentence for you to agree with it. Sounds more like you were being to ridged in your comprehension of what was trying to be said.

 

[Dave242]

Good. You also missed the semantics of Mashnut said about "the Am side" and went off on a rant calling people ignorant, dumb, and laughable......based on you not reading/comprehending things correctly.

It is sad that a person who works so hard to run great events and does so much more for the sport undermines a good reputation rather than takes opportunities to build a better reputation for himself and the organization he has been elected to serve.

 

[wake911]

I'm completely fine with am money going to pros. That is coming from a long time am player, and a regular non-cashing pro player now.

I believe ams should be trophy only, no players packs. If you want a tshirt, pay extra and buy a t-shirt. Like every other sport I've competed in. What ever happened to paying for the work someone puts in to run a tournament and paying for the chance to compete against others? Paying for the work to run the tourney includes a part of your entry possibly going to advertising or payouts for pros to attract the better pros making the event bigger.

 

[DiscJunkie]

Is this summary correct?
1. TD advertises a "B-tier" tournament with 100% payout, so Pros expect that $500, or more, will be added to the Pro purse (over and above the money that is sent in for Registration minus PDGA expenses and minus Admin costs).
2. AMs also register (usually, but not necessarily, outnumbering the Pros 2 to 1 or better) expecting 100% payout.
3. At the end of the Tourney, scrip is handed out to top AMs who trade it in for Merchandise.
4. The scrip is redeemed at Retail, the Players Pack is valued at Retail (usually at Retail but not always) and this "book value" is used to calculate/verify the 100% Payout.
5. The profit of the AM transactions is used to add $$ to the Pro purse, which allows the TD to guarantee that he/she fulfills all obligations.

MTL and Dave and whoever,
As I understand, this is more or less the way it works.
I don't have a dog in this fight (no vested interest and no strong opinion), but some people see the above scenario as perfectly reasonable.
However, there are those that see it as AMs supporting the Pros and shady at best.

Please correct any errors.

 

[Halcón]

I'm completely fine with am money going to pros. That is coming from a long time am player, and a regular non-cashing pro player now.

I believe ams should be trophy only, no players packs. If you want a tshirt, pay extra and buy a t-shirt. Like every other sport I've competed in. What ever happened to paying for the work someone puts in to run a tournament and paying for the chance to compete against others? Paying for the work to run the tourney includes a part of your entry possibly going to advertising or payouts for pros to attract the better pros making the event bigger.

Excellent post.

Is there a movement to make more tourneys trophy only, no packs? Or are TD's not willing to test the waters? I know David Sauls has mentioned he's tried many formats, including trophy only.

 

[Dave242]

5. The profit of the AM transactions is used to add $$ to the Pro purse, which allows the TD to guarantee that he/she fulfills all obligations.
.....
However, there are those that see it as AMs supporting the Pros and shady at best.

Please correct any errors.

You are correct. The one clarification I would make (and it is a semantics and/accounting clarification) is to reword #5 to something like this since the way you word it is not clear enough for people who are predisposed to thinking shady stuff is happening:

"The profits from the AM transactions go to the TD/club and are theirs to do with as they please. If the TD/club is a cash sponsor of the event, that money is used to offset their sponsorship costs of the event. The sponsorship money (from the club/TD and/or from outside sources) is used to guarantee that all obligations are fulfilled."

 

[smyith]

I'm completely fine with am money going to pros. That is coming from a long time am player, and a regular non-cashing pro player now..

i'm not whatsoever. its BS!
i would, scratch that, I do prefer the profits going directly to the TD/club. I would love to see more TDs making a living off of running top notch events. i dont want to see some random Pro who gives nothing back (majority of the time) getting a share of the profits of the people who made it happen for them.

i don't understand why so many people in this sport are so geared towards catering to the Pros. By in large what do they give back to the DG community normally?
clinics? nope they generally get paid for that. maybe local pros will help you if they like you.
buying plastic from TD/club? almost never
helping with course work? only the local community (pros and ams) helps with that. I would love to see a touring pro randomly stop somewhere and help for a day putting a course in. i have a feeling i may wait a long time.

the AMs are the pDGA.

i think the reason why the pDGA is geared towards the Pros is simple. So many IDIOTS keep voting in touring Pros to the BOD. Naturally they are going to vote for things that benefit them being on tour (yes there may be exceptions), not the Ams.
and the reason I call them idiots is because by in large the two most common things I hear when I ask who someone voted to the board "I didn't vote" (pisses me off alot, especially when its someone complaining about the pDGA) and "i voted for blah blah Pro" why? "because i like watching him play" did you read his statement? "there were statements?"

so i ask why do you feel pros should be catered to?
do you feel bad for them cause they don't get a players pack? (that the AMs actually pay for, it is not gifted to them)

 

[_MTL_]

Good. You also missed the semantics of Mashnut said about "the Am side" and went off on a rant calling people ignorant, dumb, and laughable......based on you not reading/comprehending things correctly.

It is sad that a person who works so hard to run great events and does so much more for the sport undermines a good reputation rather than takes opportunities to build a better reputation for himself and the organization he has been elected to serve.

And now I'm done with this thread.

Good luck getting info about the way tournaments are ran from people who don't run tournaments and aren't current PDGA members everyone!

 

[DiscJunkie]

You are correct. The one clarification I would make (and it is a semantics and/accounting clarification) is to reword #5 to something like this since the way you word it is not clear enough for people who are predisposed to thinking shady stuff is happening:

"The profits from the AM transactions go to the TD/club and are theirs to do with as they please. If the TD/club is a cash sponsor of the event, that money is used to offset their sponsorship costs of the event. The sponsorship money (from the club/TD and/or from outside sources) is used to guarantee that all obligations are fulfilled."

I would not disagree with the revision/clarification.

 

[scarpfish]

The shirt costs me about $14 per. The disc costs me about $8 per. The vlaue on those is roughly $40 combined. $22 is the minimum I can remove from entry and $40 is the max. I will take probably around $30.

That's still a heck of a deal and then is added cash of $10 per player in the am field.

And as an Am player, I don't see that as the slightest bit shady. As long as a TD meets the minimum value for the player's packs, I could care less what his markup on that stuff is. I got what was contracted when I signed up.

 

[#19325]

I have been playing, volunteering, and running PDGA events since 2003. As the years went on I've educated myself to how disc golf events are run in other places. There area wide variety out there and regions vary. Being a big part of the ILL scene I've only scene this Am Scam once in those years. Being IL State Coordinator for 6 years I haven't seen it happen. Am Scam is way overblown and it's not happening often.

One thing I can't stand are amateur players who think they should get discs at the same price the tournament director or merch man got them for.

 

[Dave242]

And as an Am player, I don't see that as the slightest bit shady. As long as a TD meets the minimum value for the player's packs, I could care less what his markup on that stuff is. I got what was contracted when I signed up.

Heck, even if the shirts and discs are donated, there is nothing wrong with the setup if all parties are getting what was contracted when they signed up.

That said, there is the issue of shadiness regarding taxes if profits are being made. That needs to be a consideration whether it is an individual, company, or club running the event. But.....that consideration is between them and the governments (federal, state, local).

 

[tampora]

I don't like the idea of "retail value" being figured into players pack costs. Retail value is exactly this: the absolute most the company can get away with charging in order to maximize profits. If the company could make more money in the long term charging $5 million per disc and selling to one rich guy, versus, $20 per disc and selling to the masses, you better believe they would opt for plan #1. In that case, "retail value" would be $5 million.

Suppose you went to a movie theater and midway through the show, the video cut out. Upon complaining, they chose to refund your $20 ticket fee in the form of $20 worth of theater popcorn. This equals out to about 2 massive tubs of popcorn. Now, of course you could go to the gas station and buy an equal amount for $1, but the theater's "retail value" on popcorn is much much higher, despite the product being the same as the gas station. Of course we'd argue that we had been ripped off.

Forcing the purchase of players packs onto players as a requirement of tournament entry feels like a similar situation to me.

I know TDs gets discs at a discount, yet they value them at full retail price, and, they expect that we should also. That smells funny.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Let players packs be an optional increase in registration fees. If I'm alone in my thinking, nothing will change since everyone will opt to buy a pack. If I'm right, the over-inflated importance of player's packs will soon be evident from no one buying them.

 

[Dave242]

This varies all over the place from event to event, TD to TD. IMO, the best is the events that have a big inventory of merchandise and for a players pack you get a voucher/coupon. It is only good at the event, but since the organizer also wants to make incremental sales, prices are competitive with what players can get elsewhere. In this case, the player gets exactly what he/she wants at a decent price.

Optional player packs is a logistical nightmare. There is always a huge crush of activity at sign-in (and when people merch-out at the end), and keeping up with this is extremely hard.....especially since it only makes a minority of people only slightly more happy.

 

[mashnut]

I have been playing, volunteering, and running PDGA events since 2003. As the years went on I've educated myself to how disc golf events are run in other places. There area wide variety out there and regions vary. Being a big part of the ILL scene I've only scene this Am Scam once in those years. Being IL State Coordinator for 6 years I haven't seen it happen. Am Scam is way overblown and it's not happening often.

One thing I can't stand are amateur players who think they should get discs at the same price the tournament director or merch man got them for.

I think MTL (and perhaps you if you're responding to my post) misunderstood where I think the entitlement lies. I have no issue with the "am scam", paying out at retail makes total sense and it's irrelevant to me what the TD actually pays for any of it. I wish it was ok for the TD to pocket more of that, and that it was ok for the pro side of the tournament to pay for itself. Allowing TDs to focus on running a great event without having to pound the pavement looking for sponsorship or roll the retail/wholesale margin into coving the fees for the pro side and meeting the added cash requirements.

Either way, it's not that big a deal to me. My original post that was quoted at the beginning of this thread was in response to a poster who claimed that it was ams who were entitled. There certainly are plenty of entitled players in every division, but across the board expecting added cash in your division when there isn't any real money coming from outside the sport is a little more egregious to me.