What is the best way to make courses challenging for the DGPT?

[oldmandiscer]

So what OMD and BGC wants is basically crappy MA3 putting for the pros. They want more challenging putting from inside the circle. Basically they want to watch ME putt.

I donno dudes, not sure I'd refer to that as more dramatic...I'm thinking the better word here is tedious. But hey, you do you.

And for the love of Steady Ed please stop comparing DG to golf. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

We want to see top players challenged, not poor players play crappy.

 

[txmxer]

We want to see top players challenged, not poor players play crappy.

They ARE challenged. Just not at your preferred distance.

 

[davetherocketguy]

We want to see top players challenged, not poor players play crappy.

But the net effect of what you are proposing is going to be EXACTLY that. Except it won't be crappy players dealing with garbage putting it'll be pro players dealing with garbage putting. Very same thing. Boring and tedious to watch. Why do you like boring disc golf? Why do you lie?

 

[DavidSauls]

and this has been acknowledged as a reasonable opinion--just an opinion though.

Your supporting arguments are where you lose people. I and many others find the sport quite compelling as it is--particularly I like putting as it is. I don't think the sport would be better off if the "drama" was in 15'-20' putts. As Steve West has attempted to explain, the drama exists, it's just at a different distance than you think is appropriate.

I can -- I have -- make better arguments for the consideration of smaller baskets. But those arguments don't involve my personal tastes, such as what I find boring or what design features I don't like; nor do they make any irrelevant comparisons to golf. But I'm not sure I can make an argument that justifies a significant change being implemented.

But this thread is ostensibly about more ways to increase the challenge of disc golf, than just shrinking the basket. Let's take a look at the other options, shall we?

 

[oldmandiscer]

But the net effect of what you are proposing is going to be EXACTLY that. Except it won't be crappy players dealing with garbage putting it'll be pro players dealing with garbage putting. Very same thing. Boring and tedious to watch. Why do you like boring disc golf? Why do you lie?

You have to make the basket big enough so that players are not laying up 40-50 footers. Thus a 15 footer must still be very high percentage. What I am talking here is a minor change in reality. Players should be punished for lasering by 30 feet though too. Skill inside of 60 feet would be need to be increased. No more line drive rippers, or less for sure. Height and touch would be part of the putting game.

3-4 more putts per round is an approximate change in my estimation. It's not going from incredible to garbage putting. It's like one extra putt per 5 holes. It's not much but would still be noticeable.

 

[oldmandiscer]

They ARE challenged. Just not at your preferred distance.

So you want 18 holes where none are parkable. You want to watch that? I enjoy and enjoy watching players put shots next to the basket. If a perfect shot is 50 feet that is not entertaining.

 

[foxdawg10]

I have a hot take:. Let's not change a dang thing, lol. The game is coming off it's arguably most successful seasons ever. Most excitement, most drama, highest purses. If it ain't broke why fix it.

Viewer love to see the pros can putts in pressure situations for the same reason they love seeing 650 foot park jobs. Because we can't do it, at least not on a consistent basis. Part of the reason the Worlds was so exciting was seeing Conrad, McBeth, and even KJ, canning putt after putt, making shot after shot, in the holes leading up to the Shot. The Shot would not exist with the 5 or 6 holes leading up to hole 18.

I haven't seen a compelling reason in this thread to make any changes. The pros make things look easy, but implying it is too easy isn't honest.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Got a basket for XMAS that I plan of turning into a smaller basket prototype.Be patient or I won't share it here when completed.

I call BS. Prove me wrong.

 

[davetherocketguy]

If it ain't broke why fix it.

Truer words could not have been spoken.

 

[oldmandiscer]

I have a hot take:. Let's not change a dang thing, lol. The game is coming off it's arguably most successful seasons ever. Most excitement, most drama, highest purses. If it ain't broke why fix it.

Viewer love to see the pros can putts in pressure situations for the same reason they love seeing 650 foot park jobs. Because we can't do it, at least not on a consistent basis. Part of the reason the Worlds was so exciting was seeing Conrad, McBeth, and even KJ, canning putt after putt, making shot after shot, in the holes leading up to the Shot. The Shot would not exist with the 5 or 6 holes leading up to hole 18.

I haven't seen a compelling reason in this thread to make any changes. The pros make things look easy, but implying it is too easy isn't honest.

Not doing anything is a choice. But you will just end up with more raised baskets and more and tighter OB ropes everywhere in the future. Because the amount of great players is not slowing down. Just look now from 5 years ago. We had 4 guys rated above 1050 last season. I could see 40+ in 10 years. Which only means more tricks and gimmicks because players 1 putt nearly every hole.

 

[davetherocketguy]

You have to make the basket big enough so that players are not laying up 40-50 footers. Thus a 15 footer must still be very high percentage. What I am talking here is a minor change in reality. Players should be punished for lasering by 30 feet though too. Skill inside of 60 feet would be need to be increased. No more line drive rippers, or less for sure. Height and touch would be part of the putting game.

3-4 more putts per round is an approximate change in my estimation. It's not going from incredible to garbage putting. It's like one extra putt per 5 holes. It's not much but would still be noticeable.

So you want the DGPT to go through tens of thousands of dollars to pay for the many manhours of labor and materials to switch baskets for a "not much" change on each course they play on?

You're talking at least 24 baskets to switch out - in many cases a lot more because some tour stops have multiple courses. Transporting all those baskets means dissembling each one and reassembling each one at each location - unless you have a gigantic trailer and like paying for all that extra gas. Then there's transportation. Have you seen gas prices lately? Each basket weighs ~50 pounds and because you have tournaments with multiple courses you'll probably need at least 40 to 50 baskets so that's around 2500 lbs. At LEAST one ton of baskets. Price that transportation nonsense cost out from Oregon to Minnesota - and not just gas but you gotta room and board some poor driver too along with a decent hourly pay.
Yikes.

My SWAG guess is this change proposed by OMD is going to be in the $100k-$150k neighborhood. Heck just the driver salary is going to be about half of that cost. So the expectation is either a sponsor or the DGPT is going to foot the bill for all that for the change that is going to have a "not much" noticeable difference.

I'm just demonstrating how pointless this idea is right here.

smdh

 

[Three Putt]

I'd say so. It's John's acronym, so I'll let him be the judge. But I think that's the general idea -- a shot that doesn't require much disc golf skill.

In our early days building a private course, we created a number of NAGS in places that looked cool, but didn't play that way. Sometimes, the flaw was just getting the distance wrong. Over time, we got better about it.

Distance would be a weird thing to design for since it's a moving target.

That was the old-school tournament layout fix though, "Lets go 100' behind each tee and figure out where we can mark a temp tee to add 1,800' to this course; that should make so-and-so touring pro who is supposed to be coming happy." Sometimes that extra 100' made the hole harder, sometimes it just made your upshot 150' instead of 50'.

 

[foxdawg10]

Not doing anything is a choice. But you will just end up with more raised baskets and more and tighter OB ropes everywhere in the future. Because the amount of great players is not slowing down. Just look now from 5 years ago. We had 4 guys rated above 1050 last season. I could see 40+ in 10 years. Which only means more tricks and gimmicks because players 1 putt nearly every hole.

Well placed OB lines aren't necessarily bad for the game. This is exactly what created the drama at World's on hole 18 at the Fort in the final round.

 

[DavidSauls]

Distance would be a weird thing to design for since it's a moving target.

That was the old-school tournament layout fix though, "Lets go 100' behind each tee and figure out where we can mark a temp tee to add 1,800' to this course; that should make so-and-so touring pro who is supposed to be coming happy." Sometimes that extra 100' made the hole harder, sometimes it just made your upshot 150' instead of 50'.

I hate those retrofits. I've seen some really stupid ones.

Our distance issues usually were on 2nd shots on par-4s. You couldn't reach the basket of the tee, but you could reach a point where the 2nd shot was dull. Though we had a few par 3s that looked cool but, because of obstacles, few shots actually reached, and resulted in a bunch of layups.

That's for a blue-level course. My skill has diminished to the point that a few of our well-designed holes now fall into this category for me -- but I'm not the intended player.

 

[Three Putt]

Not doing anything is a choice. But you will just end up with more raised baskets and more and tighter OB ropes everywhere in the future. Because the amount of great players is not slowing down. Just look now from 5 years ago. We had 4 guys rated above 1050 last season. I could see 40+ in 10 years. Which only means more tricks and gimmicks because players 1 putt nearly every hole.

The cat is out of the bag. There will be more raised baskets and more and tighter OB ropes everywhere in the future because it's what they are doing and so far as viewing goes it looks like it's working. if you come in with a smaller target and that only adds 3-4 putts a round, the course designers are not going to back off the gas. They are still going to raise baskets and make ridiculously tight OB until people won't watch it.

This is your biggest obstacle in getting the DGPT to do anything about how they are preparing courses. Right now everything they are doing appears to be working. You will have to convince them to fix something that isn't broken.

 

[Three Putt]

I hate those retrofits. I've seen some really stupid ones.

Our distance issues usually were on 2nd shots on par-4s. You couldn't reach the basket of the tee, but you could reach a point where the 2nd shot was dull. Though we had a few par 3s that looked cool but, because of obstacles, few shots actually reached, and resulted in a bunch of layups.

That's for a blue-level course. My skill has diminished to the point that a few of our well-designed holes now fall into this category for me -- but I'm not the intended player.

Hot take: Disc golf is better when it's par 3. A lot of the problems I've seen with courses is trying to make a shot a two-drive shot when all the elements are sitting there for two good par 3 shots. People try to make the land do too much; the longer you make the hole, the less likely it is to play like you thought it was going to.

But that cat has been out of the bag for a long time as well so no bother debating that.

 

[biscoe]

Hot take: Disc golf is better when it's par 3. A lot of the problems I've seen with courses is trying to make a shot a two-drive shot when all the elements are sitting there for two good par 3 shots. People try to make the land do too much; the longer you make the hole, the less likely it is to play like you thought it was going to.

But that cat has been out of the bag for a long time as well so no bother debating that.

Better? Nah- just different, more fun for a lot of people, less fun for others.

The holes I personally tend to like the best are almost all Par 4's. Great Par 3's require great land, great Par 4's not necessarily to the same degree. The unreachable Par 3 is my least favorite type of hole in disc golf.

 

[Three Putt]

Well placed OB lines aren't necessarily bad for the game. This is exactly what created the drama at World's on hole 18 at the Fort in the final round.

I don't know. In FPO I couldn't tell what in the Hell was going on. They showed Catrina Allen's disc touching a line, which I think was the line for the C1 circle? I don't know, they didn't really say. Then Paige Pierce threw an upshot that wasn't very good and it evidently was OB, but it wasn't very clear to me where the OB was so I was left going "Hun?" At the time that it was all happening I was all sorts of confused about if Allen's shot had been close to going OB and where the OB was exactly that Pierce missed. Sometimes in sports you see something amazing and think "What did I just see?" in a how-did-they-do-that sorta way, but watching FPO I was thinking "What did I just see?" in a that-was-dumb sorta way.

 

[Three Putt]

The unreachable Par 3 is my least favorite type of hole in disc golf.

I mean they are all unreachable for me anymore, so... :\

But Hell, I like to see discs fly far so people can try to design Par 5's if they want.

 

[foxdawg10]

I don't know. In FPO I couldn't tell what in the Hell was going on. They showed Catrina Allen's disc touching a line, which I think was the line for the C1 circle? I don't know, they didn't really say. Then Paige Pierce threw an upshot that wasn't very good and it evidently was OB, but it wasn't very clear to me where the OB was so I was left going "Hun?" At the time that it was all happening I was all sorts of confused about if Allen's shot had been close to going OB and where the OB was exactly that Pierce missed. Sometimes in sports you see something amazing and think "What did I just see?" in a how-did-they-do-that sorta way, but watching FPO I was thinking "What did I just see?" in a that-was-dumb sorta way.

They did say, Catrina's was straddling OB line. Paige and Paul would not have laid up without the OB. Paige would not have choked up shot without OB. Conrad's The Shot was even more amazing since the 3 could have easily been a 6 had he missed.