What should happen to the "quitters"

[Hegemony]

You can't penalize drop outs using score penalties because the round would simply drop off their rating anyway if the round rating is too low.

Not that I think it's a good solution, but wouldn't that cease to be true for habitual offenders? Their SD would widen dramatically and their rating would eventually suffer. Of course, they'd then be eligible to enter tournaments in lower divisions giving the potential for bagging claims.

I think the main reason for this complaint is habitual quitters getting into high-demand tournaments with waiting lists. Many people feel it isn't fair to the wait-list players to have to sit out when a guy with a history of DNFs because they aren't playing well lives up to their reputation. Ideally, this is a TD issue and not one that requires a global rules change. At most, optional provisions or guidance would be all that is necessary.

 

[_MTL_]

This is a non issue being discussed by people that have too much time on their hands

Incorrect. I can assure you this is an issue the PDGA is looking into.

 

[KenTyburski]

These type of people receive a short term gain through their manipulation of the system, but are usually "found out" and then shunned by their peers in the long run. It is a self governing process and the PDGA need not waste their time and energy on this non issue.

There are two elements to this, in my opinion, both PDGA issues.

One, what if the person manipulating the system could care less about being shunned by his/her peers? We may think, "Oh, so who cares about one guy being a jerkface? That's his business." But the PDGA should care, because this does happen regularly, the intentional DNF. If it happens regularly, it has the potential to grow into a bigger issue, as more people may decide they want to manipulate the system. And when a touring pro does it, it pushes the boundaries further. The fact that it occurs, in my opinion, is a burden to the integrity of the game, and that should be something the PDGA seeks to preserve and move forward.

Two, without any policy to govern the issue, the jerkface can still register for, play in, and DNF during any tournament he/she wants. We may think, "Oh, well, jerkface doesn't get his money back anyway, so it's not a big deal." But the PDGA should care, because this is the jerkface that is carded up with other non-jerkface, honest players who may have a diminished or less enjoyable disc golf experience, or who might lose a realistic chance to win a tourney because of a bagger (yeah, I know it's not tee-ball where everyone needs a trophy, but...). And that should be something that the PDGA cares about, because it's again a burden on the integrity and forward progress of the game. We may also say, "It's more of TD issue." But shouldn't the PDGA, which sanctions the tournaments, have policies that make it easier and more straightforward for TD's to run their tournaments, so that the jerkface doesn't ruin an otherwise solid tournament for a bunch of players that might not come back because of it?

I personally think the intentional DNF is a suck move, because I'm not the type of person who would ever bail on a bad round like that. But I think it's at least smart for the PDGA to look into possible policies for the situation.

 

[biscoe]

There is a huge difference between quitting and withdrawing and the PDGA refuses to recognize the difference. That is the issue.

i disagree... please enlighten me on how to draw a distinction between the two on a quantifiable basis.

 

[garublador]

Incorrect. I can assure you this is an issue the PDGA is looking into.

That doesn't mean that slowRoll is wrong. Some would say that it's evidence that he's right.

Sometimes rules must be created for dealing with reality, not just forcing an idealized scenario.

So the PDGA is specifically making rules to avoid the ideal scenario? Actively encouraging a worse system just becasue it's "reality" is not a good way to run things. At most you need better reporting of the current stats (either a number of DNF's or a ratio of DNF to completed rounds). There isn't any reason to make or change any rules. All that will do is encourage the system to get worse.

 

[Violets caddy]

You would have to be a complete idiot to habitually dnf to keep your rating low so you can bag :\
Multiple entry fees pissed away so you can win one tourney then have to do it all over again, pure genius.

And if you're bailing on bad rounds so you're rating doesn't drop you're probably overrated to begin with.

The problem with implementing any sort of dnf policy is its going to be easy to manipulate, like fmla at work. You have to come up with a punishment that technically isn't a punishment.
At my place of employment a few years back we had close to 100 people with fmla, but probably only about 15 with a legit claim to it while the rest had (admittedly) fake migraines, fake asthma, etc etc. Legally we couldn't implement a policy to punish them but still had to weed out the real from the fakes, 100 people with twelve weeks a year off hurts.
So people with asthma had to start wearing full on gas mask type respirators, all fmla call ins now use your vacation time, and suddenly people are showing up everyday and not even attempting to renew their fmla. Except for people that actually needed it.

Obviously work is different than the pdga tourney scenario but the principles are the same, punish the douchebag without getting your ass sued off by legit dnf'rs. It can be done, you just have to figure out what the average quitter values more than his rating.

 

[prerube]

i disagree... please enlighten me on how to draw a distinction between the two on a quantifiable basis.

exactly. If I leave because I have "chest pains" there are no doctors on the course to prove or disprove I am having a medical condition. It is nearly impossible to police.

 

[SmoothSailor]

I think suspension is a little rough, unless it's a super-repeat offender. Otherwise, I think it should be the same as you showing up late for a tournament round, par + 4 for each hole not played. This includes people who leave between rounds. Imagine a par 66 round + 72 on your record. How many second rounds would YOU miss out on?

 

[rj29274]

Is this more of a PRO or AM issue?

I 999d years ago once due to poor play and a weak mental game. I'll never 999 again, unless I have a legit injury.

A distinction is necessary between quitting and have to quit due to injury or emergency. Ive played on a card in 2007 where a guy had to leave in the middle of round because he was having his baby a week early! He was shredding it too!

 

[garublador]

You would have to be a complete idiot to habitually dnf to keep your rating low so you can bag :\
Multiple entry fees pissed away so you can win one tourney then have to do it all over again, pure genius.

And if you're bailing on bad rounds so you're rating doesn't drop you're probably overrated to begin with.

I don't get that, either. Either you're playing well in your division, which is the point of bagging, so you won't quit because you want to win or you're playing poorly in the division above and you need to finish to lower your rating. A DNF just doesn't make sense to a bagger.

The problem with implementing any sort of dnf policy is its going to be easy to manipulate, like fmla at work. You have to come up with a punishment that technically isn't a punishment.
At my place of employment a few years back we had close to 100 people with fmla, but probably only about 15 with a legit claim to it while the rest had (admittedly) fake migraines, fake asthma, etc etc. Legally we couldn't implement a policy to punish them but still had to weed out the real from the fakes, 100 people with twelve weeks a year off hurts.
So people with asthma had to start wearing full on gas mask type respirators, all fmla call ins now use your vacation time, and suddenly people are showing up everyday and not even attempting to renew their fmla. Except for people that actually needed it.

Obviously work is different than the pdga tourney scenario but the principles are the same, punish the douchebag without getting your ass sued off by legit dnf'rs. It can be done, you just have to figure out what the average quitter values more than his rating.

That's the thing, there's no competitive advantage to DNF'ing becasue you automatically lose. If tournaments don't want guys who DNF a lot (which seems counterproductive to a tournament player) then they just shouldn't accept players who DNF a lot. There's no reason to punish something that doesn't help the player and that is already recorded for TD's to see. If you differentiate between quitting and DNF'ing you'll just see a slight increase in disc golfers with migraines. At that point you're just back to seeing how often a player DNF's, which is exactly what you can do right now. If it needs to be easier to see who DNF's and how often then that's fine, but any additional rules will just make it more difficult to be fair and you're just making rules for the sake of having more rules.

 

[_MTL_]

In my opinion, the whole reason people started this "quitting to save rating" crap, beyond bragging about your rating, was b/c of sponsorships. In the past, Innova had an unwritten rule that you had to be 1000 to be sponsored. So Discraft started grabbing younger players and now has seen a huge increase in players because they were getting guys before they were studs and now they are studs (Cale, Koling come to mind). But now, Innova and Discraft obviously don't pay attention to that.

To my knowledge on the situation, quitting just because you don't want to play will NOT be an issue. However, quitting to perserve your rating or intentionally taking a large number on a hole to get the round dropped will soon be an issue the PDGA hopes to prevent. Sure all the player has to do is lie, but this happens a lot more than you think it does.

 

[slowRoll]

My appologies if this sidetracks your thread Prerube. I really do think this is a good thing for us to discuss even if it doesn't have any impact on the actual outcome.

Just a little bit of background info on me to help explain my position. I come from a 10+ year background of playing competitive Magic the Gathering. The DCI is the governing body over all sanctioned Magic much like the PDGA is for discgolf events. You may not know what that is or think that Magic is just a silly card game, but a little research into the revenue generated by Magic events, the number of annual participants worldwide, and the massive payouts on their Pro Tour circuit shows that what they have built in less than 20 years cannot currently be matched by anything we have in place in our sport.

The DCI has states in their tournament rules that at any time a player may concede (section 2.4) to their opponent for any reason with no penalty to either player. The penalty that could be tied to such an act however, comes from any attempts at collusion and bribery (5.2). This is obviously not a direct correlation as Magic is a 1 vs. 1 competitive format with many participants, where discgolf is always a 1 vs. many format. but I think that in this case, the DCI got it right.


You can't penalize someone that has paid their money and somewhere in the process of playing the event, has decided to pack it up and call it a day(for whatever reason). In doing so, you would open up the floodgates for complaints from player's having legitimate reasons to need to leave. You would also discourage your overall player base from competing in events that they may otherwise play in. That road leads to losing money, and nobody... DCI, PDGA, or anybody else is in the business of losing money.


Some of you may disagree, but I think they got this one right.

 

[_MTL_]

i disagree... please enlighten me on how to draw a distinction between the two on a quantifiable basis.

Well, there is no way to police this or prove it, it's all about intent.

But when I look at my career stats and see three 999's, it makes me mad b/c I didn't quit any of those events, yet it appears on paper that I did.

 

[garublador]

I think suspension is a little rough, unless it's a super-repeat offender. Otherwise, I think it should be the same as you showing up late for a tournament round, par + 4 for each hole not played. This includes people who leave between rounds. Imagine a par 66 round + 72 on your record. How many second rounds would YOU miss out on?

But Chuck's point is that rounds like that would be outliers and wouldn't affect your rating, anyway.

From a rules and fairness perspective, there is no advantage to having a high rating. If TD's and sponsors value a high rating they should be the ones who figure out how to deal with DNF's becasue they might each have a unique perspective. It will be nearly impossible to make a rule that takes all of those different perspectives into account so at best you'll end up with a rule that only addresses one of the issues that could have been solved with no change in the rules. At worst it won't address any issues and punishes people for getting injured or for having family commitments during rounds.

 

[_MTL_]

From a rules and fairness perspective, there is no advantage to having a high rating.

That's not 100% true. Some events have ratings based groupings and tee times - I know pro worlds traditionally does ratings based groups for round 1 and USADGC would do the same AND tee times based on these ratings as well - you could argue that a higher rating is an advantage in that you play with better players in those events and / or it being an advantage to tee later in the day (more rest, more time to prep for play, etc).

Yes, this is a stretch, comes into play at most 5 events a year and even when it comes into play probably still doesn't provide much of an advantage, but you can't say across the board there is no advantage.

 

[garublador]

That's not 100% true. Some events have ratings based groupings and tee times - I know pro worlds traditionally does ratings based groups for round 1 and USADGC would do the same AND tee times based on these ratings as well - you could argue that a higher rating is an advantage in that you play with better players in those events and / or it being an advantage to tee later in the day (more rest, more time to prep for play, etc).

Yes, this is a stretch, comes into play at most 5 events a year and even when it comes into play probably still doesn't provide much of an advantage, but you can't say across the board there is no advantage.

That's all event specific, though and not rules related. If it's an issue at those 5 events then those 5 events can take DNF's into account. There is no reason to change the rules because the rules don't apply. If sponsorship depends on ratings then sponsors can take DNF's into account. There is no need for new rules in either of these cases. The TD's or sponsors just need to do a better job of either determining groupings or who they sponsor. Given that each event and each sponsor might have a slightly different best way to handle it, there's a chance that whatever rule is made will just make it worse for a majority of those events and sponsors.

 

[_MTL_]

There is more to it than people are mentioning itt. I've ran tons of PDGA events. Someone who doesn't show up for round 2 / 3 / 4 of an event has a big impact from the TD side and can effect the rules. For example, if that player is in a 3 some. Now these players have to split up and find other groups.

IMHO, a player should always notify the TD** when he is choosing to DNF an event so the TD can prepare for it.

**Obviously some circumstances would prevent this, but let's not turn this into a "well what if" conversation. Basic logic should answer those questions.

 

[1978]

This does effect other competitors in the actual event...if a highly rated player is playing awful...it might not be factured into their ratings but them dropping out will lower the other players ratings? Especially in a smaller tournament, right? Their highly rated points will not be available to the rest of the pool. Although, par +4 for the rest of the round unfairly inflates the ratings of the rounds of people who stayed.

Just stick it out and suck it up.

 

[dashiellx]

But Chuck's point is that rounds like that would be outliers and wouldn't affect your rating, anyway.

I don't know all the ins and outs of how ratings are calculated so this might be a stupid comment/question.

However, say someone has a high rating. But then DNFs five or six tournaments because of bad scores. If none of those six rounds are included in their rating, doesn't that make their rating invalid? I can understand one or two rounds being considered "outliers" and not affecting a rating, but if they habitually DNF when they have bad rounds it would seem to undermine the ratings system.

 

[giles]

I say let the quitters quit. I've played with more than one person who wasn't enjoying their time and opted to leave. More power to them. I probably should have quit my last tourney round due to pain but I didn't because that isn't my style.

That 884 really didn't help the 976 rating I was so proud of. (953 rated after that event)