Memorial Drama

[biscoe]

player counts and totals it, tournament staff recounts and confirms.

 

[bradharris]

I have a question. In a tournament like this where there are literally thousands on the line does the td NOT total the score top card? Cuz everything I've read on here makes it sound like its all on the player.

The rules put the responsibility of totaling the score on the player.

However, TDs always will verify that the score is correct. If a score is totaled incorrectly, the two stroke penalty is applied to the corrected score.

 

[sprintermatt]

You can be late to a tournament and have your spot given to a waiting waitlister.... if you don't let them know you are coming, even if play has not started.

On the topic of strokes. I think the minimum should be two strokes. If you only make it 1, and you WOULD have won outright, but there is a person right behind you, you can lose. With only one stroke, you go into a possible tie situation.

I played a tournament - Bradford Open - last year, I started birdie par birdie then had 13 pars in a row, and went bogey birdie to finish... Or something similar. I remember being 2 down the entire time and added up (in my head) a 51. I forgot that bogey. I really didn't check my math as I had 14 pars. I got stroked my 2 strokes. Which put me 9 STROKES back. Ouch.

Second round I was on the second card, and my round was going a lot better... I ended up beating everyone by at least 5, and the leader by 7. Had I not screwed up, I might've had a win.

My fault. I owned up and I think my speech was "My math teachers would be so ashamed..."

 

[rebecca d]

Among the drawbacks to a fining wrong or incomplete scorecards is the question of, "Is this the only violation that involves a fine?". If the PDGA were fining people instead of assigning penalty strokes because this is a "non-play" violation, what other violations would have fines? How much would those fines be?

Although our organization is growing at a rapid pace and we will soon be on cable television, I believe we are not in the position to even start trying to figure out what and how much to fine. (sorry for the run on sentence)

I believe a high percentage of our growth will be in our youth. Fostering our collegiate program to eventually make it recognized as a team sport instead of a club sport will foster positive growth. In turn, this will foster our high school programs. Our high school students would have something to look forward to in college. Once we have laid this solid foundation, big sponsors outside of the sport will take notice. These sponsors will want to sponsor our bigger events because of the foundation we have built. Thus, making our sport more professional and our events a higher caliber.

This is just one way I would like to see our sport grow. Once we have those big sponsors, then we will talk about fines And how many times can I say Foster and Sponsor. lol

Rebecca

 

[dashiellx]

I believe a high percentage of our growth will be in our youth. Fostering our collegiate program to eventually make it recognized as a team sport instead of a club sport will foster positive growth. In turn, this will foster our high school programs. Our high school students would have something to look forward to in college. Once we have laid this solid foundation, big sponsors outside of the sport will take notice. These sponsors will want to sponsor our bigger events because of the foundation we have built. Thus, making our sport more professional and our events a higher caliber.

This is just one way I would like to see our sport grow.

This is a excellent path for the future of the sport. I hope to see it happen, especially for my son, he was really inspired by the Memorial.

 

[crashzero]

player counts and totals it, tournament staff recounts and confirms.

Which is exactly my point on why I think the rule is not needed

 

[oddjob]

there's nothing wrong with the rule as is.

 

[The Hammer]

Which is exactly my point on why I think the rule is not needed

Then disputes will arise when players think whoever totaled their score is wrong. Why not avoid that in the first place by making players add their score and have the staff verify? Why do you have a problem with personal accountability?

 

[sprintermatt]

If you lose to a person who didn't score correctly (or simply cheated), you'll be on the side of double the score checking. Having a score to base the TD scoring check off of allows for a simple red flag. If you quickly go through a card and come up with a different score, you will then double and triple check to make sure you are adding correctly. Without a basis for your own scoring check as the TD, you'd probably have errors that don't get caught. The player writing the score down facilitates faster score-checking after the cards are turned in. Plus it puts the onus of a correct score on the player, not the TD. Imagine how mad you'd be if a TD added your card wrong and you didn't win? That could happen if the player doesn't hand in a scorecard with their score on it. Doublechecking cards is going to be the de facto way to enter scores for quite some time. Get used to it!

 

[apparition]

I really like that idea

I really want to say thank you for hopping on these awesome forums to respond to the idea. Thank you!

 

[jongoff09]

If you lose to a person who didn't score correctly (or simply cheated), you'll be on the side of double the score checking. Having a score to base the TD scoring check off of allows for a simple red flag. If you quickly go through a card and come up with a different score, you will then double and triple check to make sure you are adding correctly. Without a basis for your own scoring check as the TD, you'd probably have errors that don't get caught. The player writing the score down facilitates faster score-checking after the cards are turned in. Plus it puts the onus of a correct score on the player, not the TD. Imagine how mad you'd be if a TD added your card wrong and you didn't win? That could happen if the player doesn't hand in a scorecard with their score on it. Doublechecking cards is going to be the de facto way to enter scores for quite some time. Get used to it!

I think it takes away from the tournament experience more when the TD has to spend double the time checking cards after the end of the round. If there are totals and the first check of the cards by the event staff agrees, then it's a quick process. If the event staff have to add it up, then check it, that's at least double the time, more for any that don't agree where you end up counting the same score multiple times.

I agree with them^. Can't believe that it took over 90 posts for someone to mention that if the card is already added that the time checking scores can be cut in half.

 

[Toro71]

Then disputes will arise when players think whoever totaled their score is wrong. Why not avoid that in the first place by making players add their score and have the staff verify? Why do you have a problem with personal accountability?

This +1000.

Say there's no rule that the individual player is responsible for turning in a correct score. Then, ANY situation in which a score is disputed for ANY reason becomes a total cluster-bang.

Who's responsible then? The player on the card who was keeping the card? The TD? Plus, each situation becomes a messy snowflake. What if the player's score is too low? Did he cheat? Add wrong? Did his card mate? If too high, did the other player cheat? Add wrong? Did the TD try to sabotage the player because his retail outlet got shafted on his first run Prodigy order? Now, a TD's in the position of having to decide if someone's cheating, or just an English major. Should there be different penalties for either case?

Simply have to have clearly defined accountability on this issue. In Will's case, it seems silly, since the score wasn't entered wrong, just wasn't entered, but that's all the more reason the TD gets props from me for calling it.

The worst thing that can happen to any game's rules is for them to create "he said, she said" situations with regularity.

Stepping up to the 1st tee at a major in a wife-beater and jorts may have no bearing on the outcome/performance, but it's known to be against the rules, so come as you are, but be prepared to take your lumps. (And I'll high five you in a post for the fashion sense.)

 

[Toro71]

Although our organization is growing at a rapid pace and we will soon be on cable television, I believe we are not in the position to even start trying to figure out what and how much to fine. (sorry for the run on sentence)

I believe a high percentage of our growth will be in our youth. Fostering our collegiate program to eventually make it recognized as a team sport instead of a club sport will foster positive growth. In turn, this will foster our high school programs. Our high school students would have something to look forward to in college. Once we have laid this solid foundation, big sponsors outside of the sport will take notice. These sponsors will want to sponsor our bigger events because of the foundation we have built. Thus, making our sport more professional and our events a higher caliber.

This is just one way I would like to see our sport grow. Once we have those big sponsors, then we will talk about fines And how many times can I say Foster and Sponsor. lol

Rebecca

...and this.

Fines simply don't work. Apples and oranges, perhaps, but look at the NFL. One nameless player has been fined several times for stomping other player's junk. Fined 10's of thousands, and does it repeatedly. One set fine for a violation ignores the fact that it's a totally different punishment for the top players than it is for a league minimum earning role player.

Suspensions work better, but, if stuff like this was penalized by voiding a win for the team, or banning them from the post season, or reducing their salary cap for the next year...

My guess is this approach would lead to a lot fewer players shooting themselves in the leg in a nightclub.

 

[araytx]

I agree with everyone's replies regarding the importance of accurate score-keeping and ease of doing so, but the penalty should match the infraction. If McBeth ended up winning the tournament the results would accurately represent the technical aspect of scorekeeping, but not the performance of the competitors. Therefore, the penalty does not match the infraction. What's more important to the PDGA: performance or scorekeeping? This infraction should not result in a stroke violation because it would emphasize scorekeeping over performance.

So, specifically, MJ, DavidSauls, Big Sky, and all the others: do you really believe the stroke penalty matches Schusterick's scorekeeping mistake? Come on.

in a word, "yes."

 

[Toro71]

Really want to add a contentious element to this debate?

I think about what has happened on multiple occasions in ball golf...

An announcer catches a minor violation on a replay, perhaps unnoticed by the official or any player on the card, and goes to an official and calls the player out on it.

That'd be like Greenwell going to the TD because he thinks he saw a foot fault or something.

 

[ejvogie]

Have a question since we're on the topic of charging strokes to a player when a penalty is committed. Last October in a tournament I played in, couple guys were rallying to give me that +4 penalty for being "late". When in actuality, the TD decided he wanted to start the players meeting 15 minutes early because he "thought every one was there..". Players meeting was scheduled for 9:30am and tee offs were scheduled for 9:45am. I arrived at ~9:25am. The meeting was over and every one was getting in to their card groups when I pulled up and got out of my car. Immediately 2 guys in my card started yelling at me that I was late and had already received the +4 on my card. The TD immediately stepped in and said the +4 hadn't been applied yet, but I was, in fact, late since they decided to start the meeting early. Does that seem fair? They didn't apply the +4 so I didn't think much of it.. but if they had applied the +4 I would of been pretty pissed because I got 2nd place by 3 strokes.

Not only are they douchebags, they're not even correct about the rule they think you're breaking or how to apply the penalty. You have to miss holes to be penalized for being late, and it's Par + 4 for every hole you miss. SMH

 

[mashnut]

Really want to add a contentious element to this debate?

I think about what has happened on multiple occasions in ball golf...

An announcer catches a minor violation on a replay, perhaps unnoticed by the official or any player on the card, and goes to an official and calls the player out on it.

That'd be like Greenwell going to the TD because he thinks he saw a foot fault or something.

I'm not sure that would be a bad thing as long as we changed the way some of our penalties work. Obviously you can't retroactively apply a penalty when it involves a rethrow, but if say a foot fault was just a 1 stroke penalty regardless of the outcome of the shot then it would work fine.

 

[crashzero]

Then disputes will arise when players think whoever totaled their score is wrong. Why not avoid that in the first place by making players add their score and have the staff verify? Why do you have a problem with personal accountability?

If I am going to verify the score, then why do I care if the player already wrote it for me or not? I don't, I can total it myself.

Either the player is responsible, and the TD doesn't need to bother with it, or the TD/(or person entering scores) is responsible and the player only needs to make sure they filled out all the holes, the total is irrelevant.

 

[mj20300]

player counts and totals it, tournament staff recounts and confirms.

:clap:

 

[mashnut]

If I am going to verify the score, then why do I care if the player already wrote it for me or not? I don't, I can total it myself.

Either the player is responsible, and the TD doesn't need to bother with it, or the TD/(or person entering scores) is responsible and the player only needs to make sure they filled out all the holes, the total is irrelevant.

You may have missed where several people brought up the issue of how much more time and effort it takes the TD to add and verify rather than just verifying the score. That alone is enough to justify the rule in my opinion.