I think Val got burned.

[Spiky]

Does anyone, anywhere think that disqualifying Val served the best interests of sportsmanship and fair play? Or are we only DQ'ing her because we think the rule says we have to?

Change the rule.

Next time, someone will do it on purpose. Time after that, two people will. Etc. until DG is the mess people think it is. (maybe it already is)

Make rules, enforce rules.

 

[bwgort]

You don't need to hire lawyers. Fortunately there is a tremendous resource available, it's called the USGA rules of golf, they've been refining it for over 100 years. Presumably all of the issues we're dealing with they dealt with a long time ago. Outside of the nature of the target, the object we propel at the target, and the means of propulsion, the games are almost identical, so there's no reason not to use it as a resource.

What's the golf rule on a caddy: "The player and his caddie are responsible for knowing the Rules. During a stipulated round, for any breach of a Rule by his caddie, the player incurs the applicable penalty." It's crystal clear your caddie is resonsible for knowing the rules, and if he breaches them you get the penalty.

I'm not saying there should be a direct verbatim copy and paste, but it would be sensible to take a look at every golf rule and compare it to the way it is written for disc golf. If there is a difference, ask the question "why did they write their rule the way they did?" There is probably a good reason.

Golf doesn't have the same rules as disc golf. See the PDGA's blunder regarding forcing TDs to garnish winnings from tournament participants at the start of this year for proof. There needs to be more oversight.

 

[bwgort]

I agree that it is impossible to remove all ambiguity, that's why we have the Q&A (and why every other sport has one too). I don't agree that lawyers necessarily have to be involved. Or more specifically, it doesn't have to be lawyers that proof and edit the book for precision but there needs to be another layer in the process.

My understanding of how the rule book gets written and updated is that the rules committee first collectively create their list of prospective changes and goals, then discuss/write/re-write amongst themselves for months maybe years. Once they reach a certain point, perhaps during the year before an update, they get PDGA staffers involved in the discussion (Big Dog, Downes, etc). Then they finalize everything and give it to the board, and the board votes yay/nay on each rule/change.

I think that's too insular, and the extra layer I would add is a collection of TDs/players (maybe 20-25 in total) who get an early look at the rules and whose task is to comb through everything looking for the ambiguity and the potential loopholes. Essentially doing exactly what happens on message boards/social media and at tournaments in general for the first 6-12 months after an updated book is published. And their feedback would allow the RC to fine tune language they may not have even realized was imprecise, and do so before the rules are officially published and put into use.

I think too often rules are added or re-written with too much institutional knowledge baked in. By which I mean to correctly interpret what the rule intends, you often have to know what it used to say and fill in the blanks where that language or intent has been inexplicably removed from new wording. Or if it isn't an old rule/wording, it's a discussion had within the RC of a point that they know and understand but fail to include unintentionally.

The TL;DR version would be...they need more fresh eyes proofing the rules before they publish them.

Yea we've talked about this. We've also both volunteered for this job. The problem is the board/pdga has to admit there's a problem with their current process.

As you know, the board last year voted on a change to the tobacco policy. Between that vote and the publishing of the rule, the rule voted on was gutted and changed by someone involved in the process without oversight. The board's public response that this was a simple mistake shows that they are not taking their lack of oversight problem seriously.

 

[@iDiscGolf]

One interpretation is that when Mrs. Jenkins was in possession of the beer can, empty or not, and still in the gallery, her behavior was the park's problem. When she became Val's caddie, she fell under the PDGA's authority. If she had gotten rid of the beer can, full or not, before she became Val's caddie, the PDGA would not have DQ'd Val.

Or, is the PDGA saying that because Mrs. Jenkins consumed the beer during Val's round, the moment she was designated as a caddie Val was subject to a DQ?

This is the question. Allot of people picking sides in this thread. I've been waiting for someone to say this well.

 

[jenb]

Sort of like, if the alcohol is in your bloodstream, are you still in possession of it?

 

[ILUVSMGS18]

As a 8 year TD,
I warn everyone about the rules enforcement during the players meeting.
"If i see it OR someone calls out a player by name, I am obligated to take action. It's not personal its the rules"

Does this mean I could've had 3 people DQ'ed at CPS last year for smoking the Devil's Lettuce? My second round the entire card except myself was smoking out of a pipe starting on 14. I would have said something, except I was last by 3 or 4 strokes and well out of it after the firat round, and didn't want to disturb the peace. I usually don't care, but my round was already compromised by my finger preventing me from throwimg BH, and the only reason I cared was because it was really getting in my face.

 

[@iDiscGolf]

Does this mean I could've had 3 people DQ'ed at CPS last year for smoking the Devil's Lettuce? My second round the entire card except myself was smoking out of a pipe starting on 14. I would have said something, except I was last by 3 or 4 strokes and well out of it after the firat round, and didn't want to disturb the peace. I usually don't care, but my round was already compromised by my finger preventing me from throwimg BH, and the only reason I cared was because it was really getting in my face.

You're most likely asking a rhetorical question. But, what does it matter either way? Is it a performance enhancer? Does it may you play worse them drinking or smoking?

Golf is about your personal best score... that's how you win or lose.

 

[lyleoross]

You're most likely asking a rhetorical question. But, what does it matter either way? Is it a performance enhancer? Does it may you play worse them drinking or smoking?

Golf is about your personal best score... that's how you win or lose.

In the right quantities both can be an enhancer, just as in the wrong quantities both can have a negative impact. I played darts for years and my best games came after a beer. My worst were after a couple. In the middle, cold stone sober.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

Does this mean I could've had 3 people DQ'ed at CPS last year for smoking the Devil's Lettuce? My second round the entire card except myself was smoking out of a pipe starting on 14. I would have said something, except I was last by 3 or 4 strokes and well out of it after the firat round, and didn't want to disturb the peace. I usually don't care, but my round was already compromised by my finger preventing me from throwimg BH, and the only reason I cared was because it was really getting in my face.

Yes you could have. But seeing that I was playing in the event, the DQ would've likely happened after the event. Unless we crossed paths during the 2nd round or you chose to drop out yourself and seek me out.

I've had a situation similar to this play out at a previous event. A player pulled me aside at lunch break and said that players on the card in front of his were partaking but when i asked him to name the persons he declined. I looked at scorecards to determine what players he was referring to, pulled those players aside and warned them that a player was aware of said activities going on. Since a players' name(s) was not used in the complaint, its all i could do.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

Does this mean I could've had 3 people DQ'ed at CPS last year for smoking the Devil's Lettuce? My second round the entire card except myself was smoking out of a pipe starting on 14. I would have said something, except I was last by 3 or 4 strokes and well out of it after the firat round, and didn't want to disturb the peace. I usually don't care, but my round was already compromised by my finger preventing me from throwimg BH, and the only reason I cared was because it was really getting in my face.

Usually when people refer to it as the "Devil's Lettuce" its jovial sarcasm, but I get the feeling you really believe that.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

You're most likely asking a rhetorical question. But, what does it matter either way? Is it a performance enhancer? Does it may you play worse them drinking or smoking?

Golf is about your personal best score... that's how you win or lose.

Its not the performance enhancement aspect. It's the illegal in the state of NY and at PDGA events aspect.

 

[wolfmandragon]

As a personal note, I would have had an issue with them smoking. I do not partake, so keep smoke outta my face...regardless what it is from.

Do green cookies or coppenhagen or anything that doesnt influnce me, and I am a happy camper....assuming the behavior does not become disruptive.

 

[Tripper]

Do you feel like it has the same taste poured into a glass? I feel like it really isn't the beer that tastes like aluminum but your lips on the can itself.

Interesting take. I am going to try it right now. I'll let you know how the pepsi challenge goes.

 

[BrotherDave]

We've come a long way since that time some dude's vehicle accidentally rolled into the lake at USDGC and bags of weed came floating out.

 

[Tripper]

Do you feel like it has the same taste poured into a glass? I feel like it really isn't the beer that tastes like aluminum but your lips on the can itself.

Test complete. The lips on the can definitely add aluminum flavor.

 

[DiscAnarchy]

Do you feel like it has the same taste poured into a glass? I feel like it really isn't the beer that tastes like aluminum but your lips on the can itself.

Taste aside, there is a very good reason beer should be poured into a glass before enjoying: the carbonation gets released into the air instead of your stomach.

 

[dashiellx]

What is a caddy? The rules don't define it clearly. From 3.05, I'm guessing it's anyone who carries your bag at any point during your round. In that case, the rules also say the player is responsible for their behavior at any time during the tourney......

For my part, that issue of what a caddy is needs to be clarified in the rules. Perhaps players should be required to declare one before the round? Again, as the rule states below, how long the caddy is "caddying" has no bearing on when the player is responsible for said caddy's behavior.

This goes along with what I was thinking while reading this thread.

Why was Val's mom allowed to start caddying midway through the round? Doesn't seem quite "professional" to have a caddy enter/leave midround

 

[Monocacy]

Taste aside, there is a very good reason beer should be poured into a glass before enjoying: the carbonation gets released into the air instead of your stomach.

Yeah but releasing carbon dioxide in the glass inhibits your ability to burp.

That doesn't sound right.

And wouldn't the beer jouncing about in your bag do at least as good a job of releasing CO2?

 

[JC17393]

This goes along with what I was thinking while reading this thread.

Why was Val's mom allowed to start caddying midway through the round? Doesn't seem quite "professional" to have a caddy enter/leave midround

It happens all the time. Very few players have dedicated caddies. Usually if they're not carrying their bag, it's on the shoulder of a friend or significant other who also plays. Especially at tee time events, the would-be caddy might be on the course themselves at the start of the round but catch up to grab the bag once they're done. I've also seen more than one instance where a player incurs a injury and they are only able to finish by finding someone to carry their bag over the last few holes.

I would think until it became standard practice for all players to have full time caddies like we see in ball golf, there won't (and shouldn't) be strict restrictions on when a caddy must be present in order to carry the bag at all.

 

[A-Aron]

She's such a sweetheart. Seems a little harsh. Wasn't she in 1st place? How about a 1 stroke penalty and a warning? Geeze