2019 United States Disc Golf Championship Oct 2-5

[Steve West]

From a game construction standpoint the weight Hole 17 carries is absurd. I still think that the higher the score attainable the greater the engagement though. People remember McCray's blowup there precisely because the number was so high. It appeals to the same lowest common denominator lizard brain within people as reality tv. How important that is depends on the goals of the event.

I don't think the engagement was because of the numbers. Especially not the numbers that require math. Figuring out and then adding the number of penalty throws is not lizard brain stuff.

I think the engagement came from the obviousness of whether the throw was good or bad, the expression on his face, the humiliation of not being able to advance, the act of moving his whole bag to the tee pad in resignation.

And yes, from the knowledge that his chances of winning were being eroded. But, all that lizard brain engagement would have happened if it were simply re-throw, instead of re-throw and add an imaginary throw. Until he made the island, no one knew if he ever would. It would have been easier for everyone to stay involved it they only had to count the number of times the disc left his hand.

Steve, seems like we had this disagreement last year about H17.

I still disagree with your conclusions that laying up is a low-benefit strategy.
Nothing is without risk, admittedly, but laying up at H17 this year was relatively safe and the second throw is ~200' downhill and open.
There was a wide, flat space to lay up, about 80' in front of the tee. Plus, a lay up gives you a clear view of the green and allows a hyzer onto the green.
If H17 doesn't have this lay-up area, the discussion changes.
If the players feel like they have to go for the green from the tee, they bear the consequences.
It may be a question of practice in Conrad's case, but the lay-up is a safer play and especially for players who are tired or stressed and under pressure, it's good strategy.

I did not say it is a low benefit strategy. It's better than going for the target. It's just not the highest benefit strategy. Laying up results in a slightly higher average score than going for the middle of the island, but a lower average score than going for the target.

I laid up every time when I played in 2012. Laying up was an easy high percentage toss. Hitting the green from the layup area is a much easier shot than from the tee. I went 4434 and I'm a sub 900 player... I also wasn't worrying about my finish position so the mental stress of the hole didn't affect me as much.

The stat showing the stress of that hole on the leaders: Top 9 finishers averaged 4.7 for Hole 17 in R4. Next 9 finishers averaged 3.7 for Hole 17. That hole gets in a player's head so much more when the title is on the line. Every player knows the history of that hole. If you want the title, you have to pass that test.

Yes, laying up is easy and high percentage. But, it's not 100%. Also, it costs the player a throw before even trying for the island. That extra throw, plus the small chance of an OB lay up, is enough cost so that it is better to try to land safely on the island.

That changes if the player's main concern is something other than minimizing their expected score.

If avoiding a high score is essential, the trade-off of reducing the chance at a 2 or 3 to maximizing the chance of getting no more than 4 makes laying up the smart play.

If getting a birdie is essential, the trade-off of increasing the chance at 4, 5, or more in exchange for increasing the chance at a 2 makes going for the target the smart play.




My point is that the hole is well-designed, with multiple options that create interesting strategic choices which can change based on the situation. I think it would be better without the OB penalties. It's features and character would remain the same and it would not have such an outsized impact on final results.

Perhaps the size of the island would need to be tweaked, or the lay-up zone modified to get the balance between strategies re-optimized.

 

[jakebake91]

a.k.a. The U.S. Sidearm Championships

This was probably hashed out already earlier, but I didn't wanna soft through all the pages to find out. It's been called a sidearm tourney, but the winner of the event threw what, one bad sidearm? Pretty interesting!

 

[Cgkdisc]

I agree that going for the center of the green in general is statistically better than going at the pin or laying up under calm weather conditions or at least ones you've practiced. However, in the event you're faced with different weather conditions than those practiced, I believe the layup will be easier to execute under stress and more likely to produce lower average scores than going for the middle of the green unless you are lefty or throw RHFH.

 

[Jolt]

Just looked at the Jomez Highlights. . .and wow that last putt from James hit the chains very high. . CLOSE to hit the top band

 

[Chains Bailey]

On a positive note, I though Jamie and the Champ were pretty good on the mic. Loved the insight the Champ brought to the mental side of it and was willing to call bad shots or putts what they were, bad. Definitely more Champ on the mic.

SpinTV has always produced some of the highest quality coverage, but the thing that stood out to me the most was "the Champ ... was willing to call bad shots or putts what they were, bad."

It was refreshing to hear and I am not aware of many, if any, other commentators being this straight forward an honest.

 

[Streets]

Highlights from Jerm's Round...props to this guy for catching some of it.

 

[elmexdela]

Highlights from Jerm's Round...props to this guy for catching some of it.

his reaction on hole 17 was great

hes so smooth

 

[McCready]

I think the engagement came from the obviousness of whether the throw was good or bad, the expression on his face, the humiliation of not being able to advance, the act of moving his whole bag to the tee pad in resignation.

What year was this and is there video available?

 

[Harold Duvall]

Fascinating reading your design insights for the USDGC, thanks for sharing them with us. Andrew has done the same at Reddit and is a great way to engage with your audience. One comment that struck me from Reddit that chimed with my own disengagement in recent years with the tournament as a viewer was:

"The way I feel about USDGC is that the winner is often the least-unlucky of the highly skilled players."

This coincides with Steve's point 2 stroke vs 1 stroke penalty or the higher possibility of good strokes being punished (unfortunate kicks/uncontrollable bounces/skips off fallen twigs leading to OB roll aways etc.) The level of punishment this year felt like it had tipped to far away from enjoyment for the player/spectator. watching one after another tournament hopeful tincup on hole 17 was painful to watch.

I'm personally curious as to two things and a bonus third.
1. why every hole HAS to have OB/Mandos/something overtly punitive -

Could you not create some balance on the course by having a couple of holes that don't?

Two or three holes where the arms can be unleashed without fear, a chance to wow the crowd, the golf course is there, surely some good holes can be found there where the scoring separation isn't as great but the crowds are allowed to see something spectacular? Players want to throw big, crowds want to see big, whats wrong with one or two holes that say "show us what you've got"

There is a psychological factor to this as well where players will chase these holes and try to score well because of the lack of OB, giving you a great chance to test a different facet of their mental play.

A whole course of these would be boring as hell but 2 or three scattered in amongst the others could surely add something and get rid of the need for the forced mandos on 3 and 4 that neither look aesthetically pleasing or looked a lot of fun to play or spectate (layups to the mando on three or back into the channel on 4 are not what players turn up to play for or what spectators come to watch, when you have more of those than the attacking shot there is an issue)

2. The woods to the North East, all 80 acres of them, is there no way these can be used in some way, instead of trying to recreate the feel of woods golf, make some woods golf?

Bonus 3rd. Please,please, please consider your responsibility as the premier event currently in the world. You are viewed widely by club members putting courses in. They see hole 13 playing across a parking lot. They think "oh we've got a parking lot let's play across it, USDGC do it." (had this conversation with clubs more than once) Hole 13 is undoubtedly a great hole to play and test skills and it is tied up in the history of the course but we need to be moving past that as a sport. We can't be showcasing holes designed to be played across carparks/sidewalks etc and then be surprised when local clubs copy this and people/property gets hit.

Thanks for all your innovation over the years, I'm intrigued to see where it goes from here.

1. The mandatories and OB help to balance the distance with accuracy. I believe that course management and mental toughness are tested more at the USDGC than any other event. Who can play best within his or her skill; who can let one bad shot go and move forward? Who can press when it is easiest for their game. The much referenced strategy of rolling past the mandatory on 3B, for example, seems to take away one of the least risky birdies for someone with has that kind of distance.

In some situations, the OB is there to promote big shots. I believe 12 saw more big drives because the new OB area added around the 450' area. Eagles and GG's drives on 12 were some of the longest throws I've seen at the Championship. I believe the new OB encouraged going big.

I agree that "must birdie" holes offer their own brand of psychological challenge. My opinion is that this type of design is less effective on the 1020+ rated players the USDGC is designed for. These are also not that interesting to watch unless there is an amazing course feature.


2. The woods to the Northeast are mostly a research area for Winthrop's Biology department. Even if we could use the area, I am not sure we would. Wooded holes are amazing for everyday play, and I have been lucky to design in some amazing sylvan areas, but woods holes tends to be much more difficult for filming and for spectating. As I saw on tour this year, wooded holes also tend to have many more shots where players missing their lines find the alternate luck line to the pin or slightly offline drives get severe kicks into deep woods or over into OB. Wooded holes also present a potential issue for co-ed student safety.

3. Good point; tt is good for us to consider our impact outside of the USDGC.


~ Harold

 

[Casey 1988]

1. The mandatories and OB help to balance the distance with accuracy. I believe that course management and mental toughness are tested more at the USDGC than any other event. Who can play best within his or her skill; who can let one bad shot go and move forward? Who can press when it is easiest for their game. The much referenced strategy of rolling past the mandatory on 3B, for example, seems to take away one of the least risky birdies for someone with has that kind of distance.

In some situations, the OB is there to promote big shots. I believe 12 saw more big drives because the new OB area added around the 450' area. Eagles and GG's drives on 12 were some of the longest throws I've seen at the Championship. I believe the new OB encouraged going big.

I agree that "must birdie" holes offer their own brand of psychological challenge. My opinion is that this type of design is less effective on the 1020+ rated players the USDGC is designed for. These are also not that interesting to watch unless there is an amazing course feature.


2. The woods to the Northeast are mostly a research area for Winthrop's Biology department. Even if we could use the area, I am not sure we would. Wooded holes are amazing for everyday play, and I have been lucky to design in some amazing sylvan areas, but woods holes tends to be much more difficult for filming and for spectating. As I saw on tour this year, wooded holes also tend to have many more shots where players missing their lines find the alternate luck line to the pin or slightly offline drives get severe kicks into deep woods or over into OB. Wooded holes also present a potential issue for co-ed student safety.

3. Good point; tt is good for us to consider our impact outside of the USDGC.


~ Harold

Now for the new 3 & 4. Hole 3 is fine the way it sits. I think others want to see the hole remove back set of the double mandatory set and push the front set forward. I am for removing the right side on the front set of double mandatory set and the left set on the back double mandatory set to make the hole still be tight if one wants to or needs to go deep for the challenge but then not penalize as bad the players who play it safe as much but still make it hard. Hole 4 needs some major work or you will have at least one top pro player in the hunt for a USDGC title miss the mando on purpose because now there are a bunch in the top level pro players that can routinely make a putt from where the distance of the drop zone is at to stay at par. So move the Drop Zone on 4 back 50-100 feet somewhere in that distance to discourage players like Eagle from doing what they did.

 

[Harold Duvall]

In our testing, we had a throw roll past the mandatory. It takes a pretty amazing roller to miss the mandatory on 3, and the strategy is not without its risks. It gives up one of the least risky birdies for the longest throwers, and it can leave the thrower in an awkward position if the throw does not cross the mandatory line. Discs thrown that hard do not require much of an angle miss to turn into super long cuts or super long flips leaving the player way out of position.

It is also possible to change the angle of the mandatory lines on hole 3B such that errant rollers have to travel even farther to miss the mandatory. Looking at the current mandatory lines as hands on a clock, they currently go through "9" and "3." If the left line was angled to about "10" and the right to about "2," throws would have to travel even farther to cross the mandatory line. This could lead to some even more interesting recoveries from ultra long rollers with missed angles. We considered this option, but we tend to let holes grow incrementally. It's quite possible that position 3A will be eliminated and the mandatory lines changed.

 

[bbwrenn]

What year was this and is there video available?

2014. Fast forward to 22 minutes.

Embedding below seems to be acting up so here's the link if needed - https://youtu.be/b8wU1ityN6c.

 

[Steve West]

...3. Good point; tt is good for us to consider our impact outside of the USDGC.


~ Harold

On that note, I don't like to see golf greens in bounds (or even in play). If we are to get more disc golf on golf courses, we need to show that we understand how special (expensive) greens are. I'd like everyone to understand that it is just a given that if you play on a golf course, you don't go on the greens.

(While far less important, I'd prefer we didn't play in the sand, either. Forcing players to move back along the line of play out the sand could work.)

 

[1978]

On that note, I don't like to see golf greens in bounds (or even in play). If we are to get more disc golf on golf courses, we need to show that we understand how special (expensive) greens are. I'd like everyone to understand that it is just a given that if you play on a golf course, you don't go on the greens.

(While far less important, I'd prefer we didn't play in the sand, either. Forcing players to move back along the line of play out the sand could work.)

Point is valid...but not in practice at Winthrop's golf course. Those greens are mowed by alpaca herds and then the grass was replanted with dandelions and driven over with steam rollers. Chipping onto an ice rink would have been better. The sand on that course is unsifted left overs from some local mining operation.

 

[Steve West]

Point is valid...but not in practice at Winthrop's golf course. Those greens are mowed by alpaca herds and then the grass was replanted with dandelions and driven over with steam rollers. Chipping onto an ice rink would have been better. The sand on that course is unsifted left overs from some local mining operation.

Whether it is OK or not at Winthrop is not the point. People will watch the videos and copy the design onto places where they shouldn't.

 

[bwgort]

Whether it is OK or not at Winthrop is not the point. People will watch the videos and copy the design onto places where they shouldn't.

Isn't that the issue with a lot of the Winthrop design features? I have seen many TDs misuse drop zones, mandos, stroke and distance, island holes, ect. in the last few years because they attempt to mimic courses like Winthrop and Eureka...

 

[Steve West]

Isn't that the issue with a lot of the Winthrop design features? I have seen many TDs misuse drop zones, mandos, stroke and distance, island holes, ect. in the last few years because they attempt to mimic courses like Winthrop and Eureka...

Sure, but that only affects quality of play. Using parking lots, roads, and greens can cause courses to be pulled.

 

[1978]

Isn't that the issue with a lot of the Winthrop design features? I have seen many TDs misuse drop zones, mandos, stroke and distance, island holes, ect. in the last few years because they attempt to mimic courses like Winthrop and Eureka...

We are talking about how terrible the Winthrop ball golf course is. It was tongue and cheek. Steve's point is correct. I was dissing the goat meadow they call a golf course.

 

[Harold Duvall]

On that note, I don't like to see golf greens in bounds (or even in play). If we are to get more disc golf on golf courses, we need to show that we understand how special (expensive) greens are. I'd like everyone to understand that it is just a given that if you play on a golf course, you don't go on the greens.

(While far less important, I'd prefer we didn't play in the sand, either. Forcing players to move back along the line of play out the sand could work.)

Hole 3 is intended to reflect our golf heritage and the growing partnership between disc golf and golf. We chose a double mandatory to showcase how disc golf accuracy could be brought to the wide open golf spaces. The double mandatory also reduces the chances of divoting from throws compared to a single or no mandatory. I believe almost every good thing in disc golf has its origins in golf. We are golfs child, and we should honor our parent. Disc golf and golf are going to be more and more like two generations living in the family house. While we need to honor, and sometimes care for, our parents, we need to respect ourselves too. I do not want to portray disc golfers as a second-class citizen on the golf course tiptoeing off the very surface the golfers hit to and play on. We will continue to talk with golfers and course superintendents to make sure we do our part to honor and protect both versions of golf.

 

[SD86]

Hole 3 is intended to reflect our golf heritage and the growing partnership between disc golf and golf. We chose a double mandatory to showcase how disc golf accuracy could be brought to the wide open golf spaces. The double mandatory also reduces the chances of divoting from throws compared to a single or no mandatory. I believe almost every good thing in disc golf has its origins in golf. We are golfs child, and we should honor our parent. Disc golf and golf are going to be more and more like two generations living in the family house. While we need to honor, and sometimes care for, our parents, we need to respect ourselves too. I do not want to portray disc golfers as a second-class citizen on the golf course tiptoeing off the very surface the golfers hit to and play on. We will continue to talk with golfers and course superintendents to make sure we do our part to honor and protect both versions of golf.

I have to hand it to you: you're working very, very hard using the English language to attempt to justify that inexcusable hole #3. Alas, there are no words in the English nor any other language to justify that hole's existence, but it was a try.....