Am Payouts stifle pro growth?

[VictorB]

Lol!!

NOOOOOO thank you. I have zero interest in my AM money going to pro purses.

So where do you want it to go then?

I think Ams should be playing trophy only, and thought that back when I was playing Am full time.

 

[ru4por]

So where do you want it to go then?

I think Ams should be playing trophy only, and thought that back when I was playing Am full time.

I would love trophy only. It has been tried around here for a Great Lakes Open a few years ago. It was pretty poorly received.

I would be happy to have my money go to the club, supporting youth play, new course development and local course maintenance.

 

[VictorB]

I would be happy to have my money go to the club, supporting youth play, new course development and local course maintenance.

So do you think that people who come from out of town to play a tournament which appropriates entry fees this way would be happy with that, and come back to that tournament? Most of what you listed will not benefit those players in any way.

 

[ejvogie]

I would be happy to have my money go to the club, supporting youth play, new course development and local course maintenance.

So do you think that people who come from out of town to play a tournament which appropriates entry fees this way would be happy with that, and come back to that tournament? Most of what you listed will not benefit those players in any way.

Most (if not all) of what he listed ACTUALLY grows the sport

opcorn:

 

[ru4por]

So where do you want it to go then?

I think Ams should be playing trophy only, and thought that back when I was playing Am full time.

So do you think that people who come from out of town to play a tournament which appropriates entry fees this way would be happy with that, and come back to that tournament? Most of what you listed will not benefit those players in any way.

I would be. I am more than happy to see my, out of town money, go to benefit another area's local scene. I love the game and have been around it for a long time, I am happy with the sport's growth, regardless of the direct benefit to me. I haven't been involved in many larger tournaments, where out of town player might travel, that make a pile of profit. And, if we are talking about trophy only, I still don't think it would create a windfall, given the lower entry fees.

 

[VictorB]

Most (if not all) of what he listed ACTUALLY grows the sport

opcorn:

Ok so I should have said 'directly benefits' them.

I'm not saying he's wrong, or that I'd even have a problem with that. I bet a lot of people would though.

 

[ejvogie]

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

Why would you get a big check for $205?

It's a dry erase board. C Tier was the first time I got to use it.

 

[rusch_bag]

Each division should have the money they put into it, go to that divisions payouts. When I played more events I always hated when the TDs would take the entry fee money of the ams and give it to the pros. There were always a couple Wisconsin Tour events notorious for that which I never understood why people were playing them (one of them wasn't even PDGA sanctioned for the Am weekend even though it is required to be a B tier to be a Wisconsin tour event). I am cool with the wholesale thing, you can deduct the players pack cost from the payouts, if you want to offer a really nice players pack and do trophy only, that is ok too. Just don't take my funds and give them to a different division.

This is an entire other discussion, but if we already have gated divisions, why can't every division just play for cash?

 

[lyleoross]

Isn't the counter to that, "people only work because things cost money?"

The whole capitalist mantra thing ignores all that altruism I grew up with. Contrary to popular belief, there are some pretty generous folks out there. Tournaments call them... volunteers.

 

[Jay Dub]

So do you think that people who come from out of town to play a tournament which appropriates entry fees this way would be happy with that, and come back to that tournament? Most of what you listed will not give those players their participation trophies.

FTFY

Disc golf is the only sport where players expect to get their entry fees back, it's ridiculous.

 

[Three Putt]

Disc golf is the only sport where players expect to get their entry fees back, it's ridiculous.

The problem is how do we break the sport of that after it is already established? TD's are afraid of running players off. Big events like Glass Blown Open have lavish head-spinning player's packs. It doesn't seem like it's going to change any time soon.

 

[1978]

That just sounds like a local pro wanting to take their money.

It doesn't answer the question: Who else would benefit, by having more pros and fewer advanced players?

It strikes me as a solution without a problem.

The issue is low amount of community sponsors.

Pros are about the worst thing for the growth of the sport. Pros, especially traveling ones, come into local communities get paid out from entry and added cash. This is largely funded by mid level ams guilted to play pro or hoping to play 1 round with a named pro player. The entry fees are large (comparatively), disc golfers wallets are not.

This cash flows from the ams, to pros or TD's to pros and leaves the community to be spent on the road. Most pros do almost no course maintenance, support local sponsors, or purchase from DG retailers.

In the current format, pros cause money to leave the sport, thus reducing the amount of good td's, ability for local clubs to maintain their properties and it reduces the amount of local leagues that players can play due to eating up large amounts of DG budget playing pro.

Until a majority of the payout comes from outside of the sport, pro divisions will continue to hurt the sport.

Real pros SHOULD do everything they can to make money, but generally, it is self serving. IMO they hurt the sport more than they help.

 

[1978]

So where do you want it to go then?

I think Ams should be playing trophy only, and thought that back when I was playing Am full time.

Unfortunately for your theory, the BEST way to get better and be pro is to build a strong inventory of practice discs. Players simply cannot afford to do this. In most sports you do not have to play a bunch with equipment to really make it work. Sure you can work in a glove, and there are probably other examples... In disc golf, there are so many choices, plastic types, differences in flight based on weight, color, run and material you need plastic to practice. Nixing, players packs, trophies and paying out is the best way to get players to pro because it gives them the tools they need to get better. I got better because I got up to 10 TL's, Leopards, Destroyers, etc... not because I get a DX aviar in a players pack.

Also, a TD willing to carry multiple manufacturers allows players, with payout, to trial a new company they might not otherwise try. It keeps the big fish from being able to sample their discs when the smaller or up start guys simply cant seed 40 or 50 events a year with players pack items. They rely on payouts for that kind of growth.

 

[ticklethetruth]

Over the past couple years I have run 5 C tiers with $10 entry fees and no players pack or prizes beyond trophies. All have sold out the number of Am spots available. IMO those of you who claim players will not come out for this type of thing do not actually know that because no one in your area has tried it. Discussing how things ought to be online is fun and interesting to some people but there is very little risk involved in running that type of event- no merch to be bought beforehand and then get stuck with, etc. I challenge some of you to actually do it and see what the result is, you may be surprised that the Am players in your area are not as addicted to trinkets as you believe. What do you have to lose?

There are new players coming into the game all the time. These players are not predisposed to believe that they need to be bribed into playing with player's packs. It is the organizers who perpetuate that myth and the PDGA who prop it up with trinket requirements for their various tier levels.

How many Am spots are you filling? $8.50 per player is going towards trophies to meet requirements of a C-tier?

 

[discgolfer25]

Unfortunately for your theory, the BEST way to get better and be pro is to build a strong inventory of practice discs. Players simply cannot afford to do this. In most sports you do not have to play a bunch with equipment to really make it work. Sure you can work in a glove, and there are probably other examples... In disc golf, there are so many choices, plastic types, differences in flight based on weight, color, run and material you need plastic to practice. Nixing, players packs, trophies and paying out is the best way to get players to pro because it gives them the tools they need to get better. I got better because I got up to 10 TL's, Leopards, Destroyers, etc... not because I get a DX aviar in a players pack.

Also, a TD willing to carry multiple manufacturers allows players, with payout, to trial a new company they might not otherwise try. It keeps the big fish from being able to sample their discs when the smaller or up start guys simply cant seed 40 or 50 events a year with players pack items. They rely on payouts for that kind of growth.

I honestly couldn't disagree more. The best way to get better is by having practice discs? Come on. Give Paul McBeth an allotment of 30 discs for the whole season and he's still the best player in the world. I'm willing to bet there is zero correlation between number of discs owned and skill level once you get past 10 or so discs.

 

[biscoe]

How many Am spots are you filling? $8.50 per player is going towards trophies to meet requirements of a C-tier?

1. varying numbers between 24-48.
2. nah- $2 to pdga and $4-$8 in greens fees. not much left after that.

 

[brutalbrutus]

I honestly couldn't disagree more. The best way to get better is by having practice discs? Come on. Give Paul McBeth an allotment of 30 discs for the whole season and he's still the best player in the world. I'm willing to bet there is zero correlation between number of discs owned and skill level once you get past 10 or so discs.

He goes through that many putters every 2 months...

 

[DiscFifty]

Pros are about the worst thing for the growth of the sport. Pros, especially traveling ones, come into local communities get paid out from entry and added cash.

I don't understand how this is a bad thing. The am divisions are not funding the pro purse so what is the problem here?

 

[VictorB]

Unfortunately for your theory, the BEST way to get better and be pro is to build a strong inventory of practice discs. Players simply cannot afford to do this. In most sports you do not have to play a bunch with equipment to really make it work. Sure you can work in a glove, and there are probably other examples... In disc golf, there are so many choices, plastic types, differences in flight based on weight, color, run and material you need plastic to practice. Nixing, players packs, trophies and paying out is the best way to get players to pro because it gives them the tools they need to get better. I got better because I got up to 10 TL's, Leopards, Destroyers, etc... not because I get a DX aviar in a players pack.

Strongly disagree.

The best way to get better is to practice A LOT. You can practice with what's in your bag, every day. Of course having a few extras of your most used discs helps - but I don't think not being able to afford to buy a few extra discs is going to keep someone from getting better if that's what they really want. We get too tied up in the equipment side of this game, when the best players play well because they play and practice so often.

I don't have 10 of every disc that I throw, not even putters. Having that many won't help me get better, most of them just sit in storage. Focusing on your most used discs, and putting, is how you'll improve. I think comets and wasps are the only things that I have 10+ of, and that's mainly because I've been throwing them on and off for over a decade.