Am to Open: What Rating?

[wake911]

unbelievable how someone should be forced to become a Pro at something just because they are good. There are very big differences between playing open and am1 in all but local tournaments. The atmosphere isn't as fun, the pressure is more, and it's just not as fun of a time, quite a bit more serious than AM1 at the same tournament. For someone to be forced into doing something they don't want is pretty absurd. If you don't want to be beat by a 990 rated am, then get better or choose to play open yourself. You have the right to choose, just as they do.

side note: Technically, wouldn't getting plastic for winning an am tourney still threaten NCAA rules for amateur status? So really playing open or am they would have to turn down any prizes?

 

[The Hammer]

For the record, I'm not advocating forcing anyone to do anything. Just don't complain when you're accepting your 15th Advanced 1st place winnings and no one is congratulating you, and people are making fun of you. I promise that even those people that do congratulate you, are actually talking **** about you when you aren't there.

 

[harr0140]

That's the argument you always hear but I don't buy it. It's a bit obvious that it would either be cheaper or you'd get a better player's pack. It doesn't make sense to just give that extra money that uses to go to prized anywhere else.

I also think that one of the missing discussions here is if a tournament is run trophy only . . . that the TD has nowhere to make any money. Running tourneys for Pros actually costs them money usually and if you cut down the AM Payouts, who is going to be willing to run these tournaments? I am not saying it wouldn't be better for the sport to do it that way, I really have no idea, but I imagine the # of people willing to spend an entire day out on the course with countless hours of preparation will be drastically reduced.

Just a thought about the other side of the coin here.

 

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

unbelievable how someone should be forced to become a Pro at something just because they are good. There are very big differences between playing open and am1 in all but local tournaments. The atmosphere isn't as fun, the pressure is more, and it's just not as fun of a time, quite a bit more serious than AM1 at the same tournament. For someone to be forced into doing something they don't want is pretty absurd. If you don't want to be beat by a 990 rated am, then get better or choose to play open yourself. You have the right to choose, just as they do.

side note: Technically, wouldn't getting plastic for winning an am tourney still threaten NCAA rules for amateur status? So really playing open or am they would have to turn down any prizes?

Which is why a division above would make sense. But I guarantee they would move up. Who wants to play for a 40 dollar voucher. Against 4 people. And if they did move up it would prove what the actual reason for not going pro was.

 

[scarpfish]

It should be pointed out that when the PDGA went from three skill based Am divisions to four, the original intent was to create an elite Am division, not create a sub-Rec one. Some consternation over the names of the divisions caused the existing three division names to be bumped up a notch and hence the novice division was born.

This is just one more reason why I wish the PDGA would keep a standardized ratings break chart for A tiers and majors, and let state coordinators and local TD's decide the ratings breaks for B and C tiers. Not every part of the country is on the same level in regards to talent.

 

[garublador]

Basically, yeah.

However, there is a big difference when someone is sandbagging an AM division when they have proven time and time again that they are much better than the rest of the division. They just refuse to move up, because they are scared that they can't cut it.

There is no "up" from the current AM1. That's the top. It's like saying that 1020 rated pros need to move "up" because they beat all the 980 rated pros.

I also think that one of the missing discussions here is if a tournament is run trophy only . . . that the TD has nowhere to make any money.

I don't understand what the prize for winning has to do with that. They either have to buy prizes or get them donated. The assumption is that the trophies will cost less than the prizes. The money the am's give that normally go to the TD or wherever is still there. The TD has the exact same, if not better, opportunity to make money as before because they don't have to spend as much on prizes.

 

[Norcal]

The conflict is whether Advanced should be a protected division or not? Most players are really amateurs for life so it makes sense there's no cap on ratings forcing a player to turn pro. No sport requires amateurs to turn pro. Unlikely to happen in disc golf.

That's just it, our "pros" aren't really pros at all-- many of them are 970-980 rated weekend warriors with just a little bit of natural talent. Our true pros are playing on an entirely different level, both in terms of skill and time spent on the game.

Our borderline "pros" are in limbo, stuck either paying higher entry fees for a remote chance at bottom cash, on the one hand, or staying in am and potentially losing the respect of their peers, on the other. It's a lose-lose scenario for this sorry lot.

I really don't care if someone is bothered by this statement, but if you are rated over 980 and still playing as an AM, I have zero respect for you.

That's generally the sentiment around these parts and most (all?) choose to move up. Unfortunately, some never progress past that borderline status.

 

[Scoot_er]

unbelievable how someone should be forced to become a Pro at something just because they are good. There are very big differences between playing open and am1 in all but local tournaments. The atmosphere isn't as fun, the pressure is more, and it's just not as fun of a time, quite a bit more serious than AM1 at the same tournament. For someone to be forced into doing something they don't want is pretty absurd. If you don't want to be beat by a 990 rated am, then get better or choose to play open yourself. You have the right to choose, just as they do.

side note: Technically, wouldn't getting plastic for winning an am tourney still threaten NCAA rules for amateur status? So really playing open or am they would have to turn down any prizes?

Pro is more fun FWIW....because of all those things you listed

 

[The Hammer]

There is no "up" from the current AM1. That's the top. It's like saying that 1020 rated pros need to move "up" because they beat all the 980 rated pros.

Do I really need to explain that "moving up" means moving to the "open" division? I know you're smarter than that.

 

[garublador]

Do I really need to explain that "moving up" means moving to the "open" division? I know you're smarter than that.

Open isn't "up" from am. It's a completely different classification. It's like saying that once you have a vanilla ice cream cone you should move "up" to chocolate. Chocolate isn't "up" from vanilla, it's a different flavor.

 

[scarpfish]

I also think that one of the missing discussions here is if a tournament is run trophy only . . . that the TD has nowhere to make any money. Running tourneys for Pros actually costs them money usually and if you cut down the AM Payouts, who is going to be willing to run these tournaments?

TD's could charge the same entry fees that they always have and hand out the would be prizes to everyone equally at the start as a player's pack. He gets the same markup off the merch, and doesn't have to stand around for another hour after the awards ceremony checking dozens of Ams out. Players who are near the cash line also don't have to sit around and wait for the results to see if they made it.

Now if we really want cheaper entry fees, another suggestion would be that we all take into consideration that it takes a lot of time, sweat and effort to be a TD and that they provide a valuable service that like any other valuable service should be compensated for.

So instead of the the TD charging $40 for entry, $35 of which is handed back as a players pack, off merch that he bought for say $25, and makes a $10 profit per player, why not suggest a $15 entry fee, with no players pack or prizes, and after $5 in PDGA fees makes the same $10 profit per player.

Yeah, I didn't think so.

 

[Scoot_er]

Open isn't "up" from am. It's a completely different classification. It's like saying that once you have a vanilla ice cream cone you should move "up" to chocolate. Chocolate isn't "up" from vanilla, it's a different flavor.

That is why we aren't a real sport Chuck!....and you never wish to see us as one.

 

[Cgkdisc]

That is why we aren't a real sport Chuck!....and you never wish to see us as one.

The "Pro" Emperor has no clothes, at least not yet. I have no wish either way, just dealing with the current reality and likely future.

 

[harr0140]

TD's could charge the same entry fees that they always have and hand out the would be prizes to everyone equally at the start as a player's pack. He gets the same markup off the merch, and doesn't have to stand around for another hour after the awards ceremony checking dozens of Ams out. Players who are near the cash line also don't have to sit around and wait for the results to see if they made it.

Now if we really want cheaper entry fees, another suggestion would be that we all take into consideration that it takes a lot of time, sweat and effort to be a TD and that they provide a valuable service that like any other valuable service should be compensated for.

So instead of the the TD charging $40 for entry, $35 of which is handed back as a players pack, off merch that he bought for say $25, and makes a $10 profit per player, why not suggest a $15 entry fee, with no players pack or prizes, and after $5 in PDGA fees makes the same $10 profit per player.

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Maybe I misunderstood what trophy only meant . . . I thought it was a lower entry fee with only trophies handed out and no merchandise.

I am sorry if I was mistaken.


As for the TD's being compensated . . . I agree with this completely. It takes so much time and effort to run these events they desrve something other than the few thank yous and pats on the back.

 

[spikodelhyzer]

That is why we aren't a real sport Chuck!....and you never wish to see us as one.

Are you calling Garu chuck?

 

[Scoot_er]

Are you calling Garu chuck?

Yup.....sounded very "Chucky" to me

 

[Scoot_er]

The "Pro" Emperor has no clothes, at least not yet. I have no wish either way, just dealing with the current reality and likely future.

I agree.....Just don't see us like horseshoes and checkers

 

[JR Stengele]

This is just one more reason why I wish the PDGA would keep a standardized ratings break chart for A tiers and majors, and let state coordinators and local TD's decide the ratings breaks for B and C tiers. Not every part of the country is on the same level in regards to talent.

One of the better statements in this thread yet. Each state is VERY different in terms of talent. No question. Also, why not talks of elite pros versus open players. There seems to be two distinct divisions already in pro. Those who play open cause they think they are great and those that ARE actually GREAT. Just a thought.

 

[spikodelhyzer]

Yup.....sounded very "Chucky" to me

I feel like you just saw the banner and didn't look at the name.

 

[garublador]

I feel like you just saw the banner and didn't look at the name.

I think he knows who I am and meant it as a personal insult.

It's apparently one of the things Chuck and I agree on. Am and pro status are, and should be completely separate and ratings should have no effect on them.