Bradley Williams Suspended

[Happablap]

 

[ru4por]

I think we agree in principle, the question is still whether bumping shoulders, possibly by accident, is really a physical confrontation. I have a habit of backing up on the tee after throwing and have bumped into people several times. I realize that's not exactly what happened here, and I always say something like "whoops", "pardon me", etc., even though it's probably the other player's fault for approaching the pad too quickly. It can be a congested area with 4 players and another 4 caddies, so I'd probably never consider bumping into someone in that situation as a physical confrontation. Just something that goes with the territory, not a big deal. Now if someone bashed into me and knocked me down and didn't say anything, that would be a whole other situation.

Yup. Also agree that the intention is the crux of the question of assault, and BW has stated it was an accident. I think we have all dance around others on the tee box.

 

[@iDiscGolf]

WHOEVER STARTED THIS TURD OF A THREAD NEEDS A SUSPENSION.


















*but 18 months may be too long. Discuss

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

I think we have all dance around others on the tee box.

Goin to league tonight.
Gonna be a shoulder flailin' fool.

 

[lyleoross]

The bumped into someone in that area of the tee box discussion has me curious. Do we not understand the difference between an accidental bump and one meant to convey a message? Is it that we don't think M$ can tell the difference? Do we really think that all shoulder bumps are accidental? Let me attempt to dissuade you.

My son is in Middle School, and he gets bumped about once every two weeks. If he looks at the person bumping him in any way he gets, "ya wanna fight?" This bumping isn't the same as a brushing of shoulders in the hall, it is a message. Typically, the person doing the bumping is significantly larger than my son (he's close to the smallest in his class), brave souls that they are. Imagine their surprise when their offer of an exchange of the manly arts is met by "sure, I won't fight here, my dad gets upset if I get suspended, but I'll meet you after school, or this weekend at my Kung Fu temple. I can give you the address." Strange enough, almost none of them ever accepts, or shows up after school. I have to admit, that may have something to do with the fact that one of them didn't believe him, and he dumped the guy on the floor.

To repeat, I've read a number of posts suggesting that this is an over reaction to a slight shoulder bump of two players passing on the edge of the tee box. Such a position suggests that the following four letter conversation was based on the inability of two, not one, but two, players to distinguish the difference between a casual brush and a message. Really? Is our culture really that culturally clueless? I don't think so. Now, I admit, my inclination is to think that BW did the bumping, but I honestly don't know. I'm not privy to the interviews conducted by the DC. but I am not in any way inclined to think that something a bit more weighty than a casual brush occurred.

 

[Consult20]

The bumped into someone in that area of the tee box discussion has me curious. Do we not understand the difference between an accidental bump and one meant to convey a message? Is it that we don't think M$ can tell the difference? Do we really think that all shoulder bumps are accidental? Let me attempt to dissuade you.

My son is in Middle School, and he gets bumped about once every two weeks. If he looks at the person bumping him in any way he gets, "ya wanna fight?" This bumping isn't the same as a brushing of shoulders in the hall, it is a message. Typically, the person doing the bumping is significantly larger than my son (he's close to the smallest in his class), brave souls that they are. Imagine their surprise when their offer of an exchange of the manly arts is met by "sure, I won't fight here, my dad gets upset if I get suspended, but I'll meet you after school, or this weekend at my Kung Fu temple. I can give you the address." Strange enough, almost none of them ever accepts, or shows up after school. I have to admit, that may have something to do with the fact that one of them didn't believe him, and he dumped the guy on the floor.

To repeat, I've read a number of posts suggesting that this is an over reaction to a slight shoulder bump of two players passing on the edge of the tee box. Such a position suggests that the following four letter conversation was based on the inability of two, not one, but two, players to distinguish the difference between a casual brush and a message. Really? Is our culture really that culturally clueless? I don't think so. Now, I admit, my inclination is to think that BW did the bumping, but I honestly don't know. I'm not privy to the interviews conducted by the DC. but I am not in any way inclined to think that something a bit more weighty than a casual brush occurred.

Actually, we don't even know if the shoulder bumping was the reason for the suspension, it could very well have been what happened afterwards that was the issue. The point I was making is that a shoulder bump wouldn't cause me personally to get bent out of shape, and I'm not trying to defend BW either, just to be clear. Is a CW for not moving out of a player's field of view and subsequent back and forth banter enough to get a player suspended while on probation? I have no idea. Is there a shorter leash for someone on probation? Probably. Is BW disliked by a lot of players? Absolutely.

 

[Dcinmd]

Yup. Also agree that the intention is the crux of the question of assault, and BW has stated it was an accident. I think we have all dance around others on the tee box.

This is the second time that you used the word assault. Assault for a shoulder bump seriously?
Good luck proving that in a court of law.

Assault
Definition

1. Intentionally putting another person in reasonable apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact. No intent to cause physical injury needs to exist, and no physical injury needs to result. So defined in tort law and the criminal statutes of some states.

2. With the intent to cause physical injury, making another person reasonably apprehend an imminent harmful or offensive contact. Essentially, an attempted battery. So defined in the criminal statutes of some states.

3. With the intent to cause physical injury, actually causing such injury to another person. Essentially, the same as a battery. So defined in the criminal statutes of some states, and so understood in popular usage.

Where is BW intent of causing physical harm?

 

[threevok]

This thread is ruining the landfill participation.

 

[juju]

Where is BW intent of causing physical harm?

Haha, read #1 again. :doh:

 

[lyleoross]

Actually, we don't even know if the shoulder bumping was the reason for the suspension, it could very well have been what happened afterwards that was the issue. The point I was making is that a shoulder bump wouldn't cause me personally to get bent out of shape, and I'm not trying to defend BW either, just to be clear. Is a CW for not moving out of a player's field of view and subsequent back and forth banter enough to get a player suspended while on probation? I have no idea. Is there a shorter leash for someone on probation? Probably. Is BW disliked by a lot of players? Absolutely.

Absolutely! I suspect, without having a clue, that the shoulder bump led to the getting down field part of this. But that came straight out of my nether regions.

 

[lyleoross]

This is the second time that you used the word assault. Assault for a shoulder bump seriously?
Good luck proving that in a court of law.

Assault
Definition

1. Intentionally putting another person in reasonable apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact. No intent to cause physical injury needs to exist, and no physical injury needs to result. So defined in tort law and the criminal statutes of some states.

2. With the intent to cause physical injury, making another person reasonably apprehend an imminent harmful or offensive contact. Essentially, an attempted battery. So defined in the criminal statutes of some states.

3. With the intent to cause physical injury, actually causing such injury to another person. Essentially, the same as a battery. So defined in the criminal statutes of some states, and so understood in popular usage.

Where is BW intent of causing physical harm?

I don't think BW was trying to assault M$, he was mad at his own play, and took it out on a card mate. Churlish, yes, assault, no.

 

[Jay Dub]

This is the second time that you used the word assault. Assault for a shoulder bump seriously?
Good luck proving that in a court of law.

Assault
Definition

1. Intentionally putting another person in reasonable apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact. No intent to cause physical injury needs to exist, and no physical injury needs to result. So defined in tort law and the criminal statutes of some states.

2. With the intent to cause physical injury, making another person reasonably apprehend an imminent harmful or offensive contact. Essentially, an attempted battery. So defined in the criminal statutes of some states.

3. With the intent to cause physical injury, actually causing such injury to another person. Essentially, the same as a battery. So defined in the criminal statutes of some states, and so understood in popular usage.

Where is BW intent of causing physical harm?

Did you read what you posted? You proved him right.

 

[lyleoross]

BTW - I suspect that the Smashboxx podcast tonight is going to be highly entertaining, maybe even more than this thread. I think we should all log into YouTube and duplicate this thread there in it's entirety. Terry's head will explode.

 

[Whippetgood]

I hope the Smashboxx podcast is about actual disc golf. Just think about how much time and energy has been spent by disc golfers the last week on on BW's suspension and McBeths protest. What if that same time and energy was spent picking up garbage at our local courses and introducing new players to the sport?

 

[Consult20]

...Terry's head will explode.

Ok this seriously made me LOL! Nobody wants to see that, yikes the mess that would make would be worse than a volcanic eruption!

 

[Hampstead]

I hope the Smashboxx podcast is about actual disc golf. Just think about how much time and energy has been spent by disc golfers the last week on on BW's suspension and McBeths protest. What if that same time and energy was spent picking up garbage at our local courses and introducing new players to the sport?

You realize that many of us post from work, right?

Kinda hard for me to pick up trash on the course while sitting in my office.




On the flipside, these types of threads help pass the time and are appreciated.

 

[DanJon]

Haha, read #1 again. :doh:

That would mean, if Dollar actually threatened BW after the shoulder bump, that he too could be charged with assault.

Where's the pitchforks and righteous indignation?

 

[araytx]

This is definitely a fair point. PDGA has a media manager in Matt Gregoire. I would imagine the Disciplinary Committee could pass along its ruling and he could easily issue the statement on the PDGA's website and social media outlets. I can't see how that equates to more money being needed.

I don't see this as about a single case. It's about moving forward in the future. As the sport grows, there will likely be more discipline, and it can be communicated more openly.

My point is not that someone doesn't have the technical ability to post a statement; of course, that's easy. But where it comes from and accurately is not that simple -- not in any organization. I'm talking about all the notes being taken from interviews and meetings, all the summaries being written, all the messages being sent to all the participants to be sure we have all the right info and the "secretary/note-taker" didn't miss anything, the electronic collection of all those documents, someone writing the final draft of the statement for the exec director & Board to review, the wordsmithing and revisions, and then getting the final statement to the tech person to post on the website -- and all happening with deliberate speed after each disciplinary action. All of THAT is not gonna be free, nor is it likely within the scope of the existing staff. Not to mention if there is a situation that required a legal opinion before it moves forward for posting. Now multiply that times every single PDGA disciplinary action and tell me it's a "no-cost" item. It's like "why can't the TD do___________?" It's because there's not more people volunteering to help!

Agreed, and this is what I was thinking when I first heard the suspension length. With increased publicity and popularity, keeping the sport "clean" is going to be important going forward. So they brought the heavy hammer now against BW (and most deserved, IMHO) as an example.

What would happen if a TD decided to let Bradley play, and forgo PDGA sanctioning? That would get interesting.

nothing ... I play with people on the PDGA suspended list all the time in non-sanctioned events. Some of them are like the old man who's still protesting the phone company bill from 20 years ago

We actually do this all the time in the real world. Even at work. I guarantee if an executive comes to work drunk he will be treated differently than a line worker. Nd no, I'm not saying it's okay. Just true. You are correct though, two issues, communication and punishment. One mile has put forth an idea, followed up by David Sauls. Should touring pros agree to a different standard of reporting to the PDGA membership than other members? Now, I've stated that in the most negative light, but it's a legitimate question and it is exactly what Paul is demanding.

Translation: You millennials go ahead and have your little social media tantrum.....this is how things are done in the real world.

Lyle, Rodney, can you guys (especially since I know you've been around for a while), or anyone on the "release the details side of the coin" speak to this. I am VERY opposed to a reason being given or even posted on line for PDGA suspensions and probations for the privacy reason. Perhaps there are too many who live in the disc golf only world and they do not see any long-term repercussions, but I guess I am Chicken Little. I liked your little joke, Lyle, but there were some hidden truths imbedded behind it. We all know that once something is posted on the Internet it never goes away -- there are ways to retrieve it. Given that some 79,900 of the 80,000 some-odd PDGA members all-time live or have lived in a world where it's not their primary vocation, wouldn't it be TRULY risking people's livelihoods to have negative things written about them that happened during their weekend sport/non-vocation? I can see it now, the "New, release-it-all PDGA discipline list" :

• Joe Blow 3 month suspension -- violation of alcohol policy
• John Doe 3 month probation -- profanity directed at a player or official on the course
• Jose Gonzalez disqualification and 6 month suspension -- violation of drug policy
• Kunta Kinte 3 month suspension -- intentional disruption of tournament by putting too many times in protest
• Inga Svenson 3 month probation + community service -- inappropriate cleavage/dress code violation
• Li Wong 3 months suspension -- physical altercation/fighting with the tournament official
  

In all seriousness, do Joe, John, Jose, Kunta, Inga, and Wong really want that out on the Internet forever for a current or future employer/business partner/life partner/customers/clients/whatever that might just happen to run into that information? Especially if it happened 5, 10, or 20 years ago? I mean this is our hobby for 99.9% of disc golfers. So many are comparing it to pro baseball or pro football. Shouldn't we be comparing ourselves at this point to our local slo-pitch softball leagues, bowling league, or tennis tournaments? I guess I am just not getting that people won't see that the PDGA is right to withhold the reasons for suspensions/discipline for EVERY PLAYER.

Anybody see that? Not the joke parts, the real parts?

 

[ru4por]

This is the second time that you used the word assault. Assault for a shoulder bump seriously?
Good luck proving that in a court of law.

Assault
Definition

1. Intentionally putting another person in reasonable apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact. No intent to cause physical injury needs to exist, and no physical injury needs to result. So defined in tort law and the criminal statutes of some states.

2. With the intent to cause physical injury, making another person reasonably apprehend an imminent harmful or offensive contact. Essentially, an attempted battery. So defined in the criminal statutes of some states.

3. With the intent to cause physical injury, actually causing such injury to another person. Essentially, the same as a battery. So defined in the criminal statutes of some states, and so understood in popular usage.

Where is BW intent of causing physical harm?

Spitting on someone is assault, throwing something at another is assault. If the shoulder bump was intentional, I think assault is correct. Either way, intentional physical confrontation is WAY out of line in any game. NOBODY should feel like they could end up in a physical altercation at a tournament. You indeed really did support the idea of assault with the above.

That would mean, if Dollar actually threatened BW after the shoulder bump, that he too could be charged with assault.

Where's the pitchforks and righteous indignation?

Again, I don't think a verbal response to physical altercation could be construed as assault. I think, if the bump was intentional, and M$ felt as if he was in danger, he could respond physically. I think M$ was wrong, and his apparent response later seems to indicate he thought so as well.

 

[Consult20]

That would mean, if Dollar actually threatened BW after the shoulder bump, that he too could be charged with assault.

Where's the pitchforks and righteous indignation?

It's human nature to go after the person with the checkered past, and give everyone else the benefit of the doubt. It reminds me of an old Richard Pryor joke that goes something like this: People talk about justice, but when you look around in the prisons, all you see is JUST US!