DFP Thumb Grip

[F.Luke]

Ah man I always stopped watching that video after MJ explained his grip, but didn't realize the second to last guy is *Bard Soleng! :doh:

He uses a variation of the DFP thumb grip, where his thumbnail will actually vertically jam/press down into the flight plate. His mids (super beat in comets and buzzzes) have permanent depressions on the flight plate from his nail pressing into the flight plate.

what I noticed about the guys I've seen use the DFP thumb grip, is that they can throw super overstable discs easily, but also hyzerflip flippy discs for control. I remember seeing Bard try throwing a PD2 and after two throws, figured it out and could throw it for distance even on long straight fairways.


*when I first started playing two years ago in Norwalk, CT (Cranbury Park) all the local guys were super nice and helpful. They even would let me as a total newbie play rounds with them and give me instructions/tips. Little did I know that little 5,800ft course full of dogs/walkers/hikers/MTB/ was chalk full of a stellar pro disc golfers (the Frizzaks and others). They're all so quiet/humble about it too. it's wierd seeing random YouTube clips of them beating McBeth in an A-Tier, or DISCRAFT instructional videos and they never really mentioned anything about it.

Add another shoutout to the frizzaks: Sjur, Bard, Bueno, et al!

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Was playing on Friday with a friend who is a tennis instructor. As we were discussing the commonalities between the two, he mentioned how Jerm uses long axis rotation on his FH. This is something he'd teach at high level for serves in the 90+ mph range.

Long axis rotation includes both the forearm and upper arm. A pitcher's arm is rotating as a single unit around its long axis.
This gives the appearance of pronation of the forearm when in reality it is the rotation of the entire arm as a unit that causes the palm to turn outwards.

When he explained that, I immediately realized it was the action of the DFP. I showed him a few times and explained how I push through the plate and the power increases.

He said, "yep, that's long axis rotation."

He was able to explain it as increasing the range of motion and engagement of larger muscles. It was really cool to hear that it isn't just placebo!

 

[slowplastic]

Interesting, that's definitely a distinct feeling rotating my arm like that. Koling definitely has a clear rolling snap on both his BH and FH shots too.

 

[RFrance]

It looks the tennis folks have been studying this for a while (our old friend the dingle arm).

The Double Pendulum in Tennis.
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/doublependulum.php

Also, this clip expained a little easier.
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/KickServe.MOV

Film of a 100 mph kick serve shows double pendulum action of the forearm and the racquet. When the upper arm slows down, it exerts a torque on the forearm and causes the forearm to rotate faster. When the forearm slows down, it exerts a torque on the racquet and causes the racquet to rotate faster. That way, rotational energy is transferred from one segment to the next in sequence. Does the racquet rotate the wrist or does the wrist rotate the racquet? Double pendulum calculations show that in golf, the club rotates the wrist after the wrist relaxes. In tennis, the player needs to use the wrist to rotate the racquet.

 

[NathanNoodleArm]

Just going to drop this in here. Thanks to rhatton1.

@rhatton1

 

[slowplastic]

That's a great video. I remember in some video Nate Sexton said that on his high power shots he "engages the flight plate" which is exactly what is going on here. I've had some insane shanks trying to do the wrist roll under/full arm extension too early, but when it's gone right I've thrown some hyzer flips ~450', and that'd with some other issues in my form that I know aren't perfect. Things like this make me excited to throw again when the weather isn't so cold and gross.

 

[gstenger]

I was just about to post a new thread about my new "aha" moment today when I found this thread.

So yeah... I started experimenting with my grip out on the course today after seeing some videos where it looked like Philo Brathwaite has his thumb further into the flight plate. I gave it a shot and... HOLY COW! At first, I noticed that I threw the disc a little too nose up, so I made a little correction of the wrist on my next shot. It was like an instant increase of 50ft on my drives. I really noticed when I overshot hole 18 by about 50ft whereas I usually come up a little bit short.

I went out into a nearby soccer field after my round and started experimenting with all of my discs. All I can say is, I can't believe such a small change in my thumb position has made such a big improvement in my distance without any change to my accuracy. Sure, it felt a little weird at first holding my thumb almost an inch further into the flight plate than I usually do, but I'm going to be sticking with this from now on.

I went from throwing about 350ft on a decent drive to easily getting out to 400ft with the same effort. And I'll be 45 this year!

 

[XC_Eddy]

This thread just changed my game. My grip was completely wrong, way too low into my palm. I'm now just hooking my index finger around creating a lot more pressure in the area where fingers and hand meet. And then there's the whole DPF bit. Also an epiphany. Suddenly I'm throwing at least 50-75ft further (into the 400's, finally), and my flight lines look completely different. When done correctly, I'm throwing lower, tighter, cleaner lines than I've ever produced. I'm finally throwing lines with late turn that doesn't turn over! It's incredible.

I'm still working on getting this down consistently. When I have errant throws it feels like I'm pushing the disc into an air bounce up with my thumb rather than pushing it forward with my thumb. I'm throwing a fair number of hyzers that go up and stall out. A lot of the throws in general with this technique are coming out on a hyzer.

Are you all able to use this and not push it hyzer every time? How?

 

[RFrance]

I'm still working on getting this down consistently. When I have errant throws it feels like I'm pushing the disc into an air bounce up with my thumb rather than pushing it forward with my thumb. I'm throwing a fair number of hyzers that go up and stall out. A lot of the throws in general with this technique are coming out on a hyzer.

Are you all able to use this and not push it hyzer every time? How?

I was having trouble with throwing a lot of hyzers, too. What is working for me now is pushing the quarter instead of turning the key (8:00 in video). With my understable discs either way is working.

 

[deyo7]

Interesting, that's definitely a distinct feeling rotating my arm like that. Koling definitely has a clear rolling snap on both his BH and FH shots too.

This is an interesting thread. I really have no business trying this but I probably will with some understable discs.

Re forehand: As I was reading the thread, I immediately thought of Koling's forehand also. Seems like the long axis rotation, just (potentially) turning key so to speak in opposite direction where soft part of forearm ends pointed to the sky. And his follow through takes him to that point where, if not paying attention, you'd think he had rolled his wrist improperly in other direction. Heresy or no? Is there any slow mo videos of him out there? Cheers

 

[slowplastic]

This is an interesting thread. I really have no business trying this but I probably will with some understable discs.

Re forehand: As I was reading the thread, I immediately thought of Koling's forehand also. Seems like the long axis rotation, just (potentially) turning key so to speak in opposite direction where soft part of forearm ends pointed to the sky. And his follow through takes him to that point where, if not paying attention, you'd think he had rolled his wrist improperly in other direction. Heresy or no? Is there any slow mo videos of him out there? Cheers

Here's the perfect clip for that. You can see he rotates/gets extension for the throw, but the wrist turns over after release. He definitely doesn't torque the disc at all...Jerm is one of the highest power FH throwers out there, yet he often chooses relatively understable discs that most AM's would brag about being "too flippy for my arm".

 

[deyo7]

Nice. It's subtle but I think you can see to some extent at the 26 second mark. Also love his game face.
Understable drivers for this guy. I look forward to messing with this in the field.

 

[slowplastic]

Nice. It's subtle but I think you can see to some extent at the 26 second mark. Also love his game face.
Understable drivers for this guy. I look forward to messing with this in the field.

I think it's more pronounced from 0:09-0:10 on the first throw. You can see he doesn't end in the "palm up" position that is quoted so much for learning. He releases his arm and lets himself get full forearm extension by rotating it over. I had forgotten about this for a while and tried it out today while not concentrating on it too much...it just let my arm release naturally in the follow through. I didn't want to push it too hard at power and either hurt myself or torque something way over. Neither of those things happened. I was throwing my normal good FH distances but with what felt like 15-20% less effort. It's something I'll definitely keep messing around with.

 

[XC_Eddy]

snuggly couple behind Jerm on the first throw... They definitely didn't expect to be on the super slow-mo camera.

 

[deyo7]

I think it's more pronounced from 0:09-0:10 on the first throw. You can see he doesn't end in the "palm up" position that is quoted so much for learning. He releases his arm and lets himself get full forearm extension by rotating it over. I had forgotten about this for a while and tried it out today while not concentrating on it too much...it just let my arm release naturally in the follow through. I didn't want to push it too hard at power and either hurt myself or torque something way over. Neither of those things happened. I was throwing my normal good FH distances but with what felt like 15-20% less effort. It's something I'll definitely keep messing around with.

Yes, I only recently learned that ending "palm up" is a myth. But I guess it really was a good exercise for me since I was a torque-er and it taught me to finesse shots more and work understable discs.

Now maybe I'm reaching here but it seems like he also rotates and gets extra extension at release by going (to over exaggerate) thumb up hitch hiker position to palm up; rather than just coming through on one consistent position, whether it be thumb up or palm up the entire time (and in this way it's kind of like the backhand DFP thumb move). Maybe it's only natural and/or common knowledge among experienced players that this is how it's done. But something I'm going to pay attention to/mess with...

And then he lets his arm completely rotate in the follow through as noted.

Good work

 

[drk_evns]

Do we still promote the DFP? Just moved my thumb closer to the center of flight plate for the first time today and noticed increased power. Threw a beat aviar3 to 330 feet and was pushing close to 400 with my firebird that generally dumps at 330-350.

Trying some drivers out tomorrow.

 

[slowplastic]

Do we still promote the DFP? Just moved my thumb closer to the center of flight plate for the first time today and noticed increased power. Threw a beat aviar3 to 330 feet and was pushing close to 400 with my firebird that generally dumps at 330-350.

Trying some drivers out tomorrow.

I think you should...wow those are good distances

I don't try to get my thumb out as far as possible but I definitely still have it in to the flight plate more than where the rim/flight plate meet.

Did you notice any feel difference in how the disc released, or any less stability on the flights?

 

[drk_evns]

I think you should...wow those are good distances

I don't try to get my thumb out as far as possible but I definitely still have it in to the flight plate more than where the rim/flight plate meet.

Did you notice any feel difference in how the disc released, or any less stability on the flights?

Yeah I was sort of shocked the first throw with that Firebird. I was practicing in the field I use every day. I stand about 400 feet from where I park my car and for a second I was worried about it skipping into the parking lot. It was my second to last throw before I had to get back to work, so I didn't get to try it with any non-utility drivers.

I was tossing the Aviar3 for my dog later that night and was hitting the same distance consistently and it seemed further than usual. I measured a couple and they were 330.

I definitely noticed them flying higher than usual. I don't know if I was just releasing them higher or slightly nose up, BUT they didn't fly like I would usually expect them to fly at that height. They never dumped really. The firebird just flew on a high hyzer the entire way. The Aviar3 is pretty flippy from my dog picking it up, but it would ride the turn forever and then fade a tiny bit right at the end. It was a definite putter "distance" line but I was also putting them almost dead on my targets every time.

To be clear, the ONLY thing I did was bring my thumb off the rim and about an inch(ish?) towards center. For some reason, there is this perfect spot where it feels really comfortable and I feel like I have more angle control in with it. Any closer to the rim and it feels like my "normal" pinch grip between the index and thumb. Any further out and it feels like my thumb is reaching.

I wasn't thinking about wrist roll AT ALL. However, after reading this thread I watched some slo-mo footage of myself and saw that my follow through naturally releases with thumb rotating under. Don't know if I start that motion right at the hit or not, but my follow through seems to telegraph that.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Full disclosure, I only THINK this is the case, no real info to back it up, but it's one of those things that feels real.

When you grip with the Bratten 2 finger or the DFP, you are moving the effective rip point further forward on the disc. If I use my traditional power grip, I almost never slip on the disc - but the effective rip point is further back on the disc, because I'm engaging my pinky, ring and middle fingers (and also pulling the disc more center palm).

I think it's clear that the Bratten really allows a nose down release without having to tip the wrist, but I have the finger strength of a malnourished 12 year old - and tend to have that grip blow out of my hand. That said, WOW - incredible power and nose angle when it's right!

Either of those two "forward pressure point" grips seem to rip with a more pronounced redirection because we've moved the leverage point further up the disc, which (with everything else equal) will add an extra leveraging effect.

/conjecture from fieldwork

 

[slowplastic]

Either of those two "forward pressure point" grips seem to rip with a more pronounced redirection because we've moved the leverage point further up the disc, which (with everything else equal) will add an extra leveraging effect.

/conjecture from fieldwork

How much distance difference do you find with those more forward style grips compared to power grip on something like mids/putters?