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DGPT: 2021 Ledgestone Insurance Open Aug 5-8

On Sunday:
MPO started teeing off at 7:30am
FPO started teeing off at 7:00am
How much earlier should they start?
(fwiw we started MPO at 6:49am on Saturday)

Fewer players in MPO is the only solution and even then weather conditions could ruin it. A 2:30(?) start time on a 5 1/2 hour round doesn't leave much margin for error when the minimum weather delay is 30 minutes. I'm sure you know this already though. :)
 
I see folks like the past TD of the PDGA Amateur Worlds and The Tim Selinkse Masters World Championships, as well as the Illinois State Coordinator, among others, trying to explain the PDGA policy which is well known, well publicized, has been reviewed several times over the last several decades by our governing body.

While I appreciate their efforts, it's apparently falling on deaf ears…maybe because we have a lot of folks new to the sport here now.

The policy is what it is, and it isn't changing.
 
Mother nature said "3 rounds is all MPO gets."
Hence Calvin and Ricky won.

When will the autopsy be finished so we can we bury the horse?



Mother nature has a way of screwing up humanity's best plans on a much grander scale. Be glad they completed 3 legit rounds.
 
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... When will the autopsy be finished so we can we bury the horse?



We can still fix this!


tv-show-rick-and-morty-beth-smith-horse-wallpaper-preview.jpg





...um...for the next dying horse. :|
 
Obviously the inclement weather is nature's response to the Northwood Black course.

Oh, you want things to be brutally and unnecessarily harsh? Have a thunderstorm on Day 4!
 
On Sunday:
MPO started teeing off at 7:30am
FPO started teeing off at 7:00am
How much earlier should they start?
(fwiw we started MPO at 6:49am on Saturday)

My apologies....I had thought they were starting off later in the day, but it was just the 'better' cards starting off later in the day. It would be nice if the better cards could start off earlier, then they would most likely be done before weather cancellations/dark. But that would be a nightmare of its own - huge number of spectators following the lead groups would really affect the groups following, and who would want to wait around until the end of the day to get their awards.
 
My apologies....I had thought they were starting off later in the day, but it was just the 'better' cards starting off later in the day. It would be nice if the better cards could start off earlier, then they would most likely be done before weather cancellations/dark. But that would be a nightmare of its own - huge number of spectators following the lead groups would really affect the groups following, and who would want to wait around until the end of the day to get their awards.

Even then, are the better cards the only ones that matter? Sure, that might solve the problem of who finishes first, but the guy who finishes 40th also deserves the respect of a fair competition.
 
Even then, are the better cards the only ones that matter? Sure, that might solve the problem of who finishes first, but the guy who finishes 40th also deserves the respect of a fair competition.

plus, as far as I'm understanding it, solving the problem of finishing first doesn't solve everything. because then it'd just be some other card that was only able to get to hole 4
 
Once the DGPT has tour cards (it is coming), they could ask everyone who is tied for the lead to stick around until the next morning for a playoff. I'm not saying it would be fair, but part of the requirement of having a tour card might be to stick around the next day if the DGPT makes that call. Yesterday, it certainly didn't make logistical sense, but I can see them having a playoff the morning after a tourney was supposed to end to resolve any ties. It wouldn't be as much of a logistical nightmare as having every card finish a round. You'd still need some volunteers, but with the DGPT's employees, there could be enough.

With that said, I didn't see how it was going to happen yesterday. With idlewild in 4 days, that's a lot of time to wait in order to pack stuff up and transport it, employees that might have had days off now don't (or there's one less day to setup for Idlewild), etc. They'd need to have something built in so everyone knows what to do and it's simply a pivot to an extra day of golf rather than establishing a whole new plan.
 
This thread is giving me a headache. This is a pretty old PDGA rule, in place for very specific reasons. Perhaps when disc golf reaches the ax throwing, spikeball level of "big time", the rules should be looked at again.

No surprise here, not controversy, no possible changes.....see why I have a headache?
 
I liked Northwoods Black...although I would have preferred to see more par 3 holes like 1,7,8...

I think these brutal courses can be fun to play but I don't think they are fun to watch for most(or casual non-disc golfers). When discs aren't being thrown at baskets, it's boring. Too many par4 and 5, but this type of course is the only way to challenge a top pro when they casually make 45ft putts and can throw a putter 400ft.

Northwoods Black is an example of championship difficulty course ,for the Modern disc golf technology(discs and basket size), with an elite pro level player in mind.

It just plays too much like ball golf and gets boring to watch imo(if you want to have the biggest audience possible)...those players shouldn't have a 6hr round.

P.s. Jerm whining about hole average is irrelevant...what was the scoring average if you take away all the AMs? (anyone not a full time touring paid professional)
 
What do you all think about the 90 degree turns at Northwood? Where the landing zone is really very small. Seems there were several there, and some players, even landing in the fairway, but just short of the turn, had nothing but 50' pitches to turn the corner.

Fair for top players, or over the top?
 
"All I'm saying is that you can't make the comparison with ratings to courses with such different SSAs."

Ok I guess, but you absolutely should be able to. Comparing different data sets is one of the basic tasks the field of statistics routinely completes.

But of course, don't want to go down this rabbit hole, and at the end of the day it isn't a huge deal if the RR isn't quite accurate. :thmbup:

Says who? The system wasn't designed that way. That's like saying caloric intake is huge in weight loss as is grams of carbohydrates, so there should be a way to compare 25 carb grams to 200 calories. You can't. Those are as different as apples and oranges.


yeah, we should be able to, and the way the current rating system is setup, that won't happen. With that said, I think everyone can agree that Klein's round yesterday is one of a kind.

Again, says who? The disc golf ratings system is absolutely perfect mathematically for what it was designed to do. Everyone who complains about it wants the system to do something it was NEVER designed to do. If you want a system to do the things you want, get with your local statistician/mathematician system creator and design the heck out of your system.

I'm really surprised that's the case. Imagine it's worlds, Paul is up by one going into the final round, then Ricky leads by 5 strokes after 16 holes and they stop due to weather and Paul wins. That would be a laughingstock forever. They seriously need to look at that for next season and beyond.

Minimum 13 holes to produce a rated round.
https://www.pdga.com/faq#t133n203556

If play is suspended the round scores will be determined by the most completed holes by the entire field. In the scenario McCready described, likely McBeth and Wysocki are both on one of the top cards and each would have finished 16 holes. If it was less than 13 holes, then the round wouldn't be official and revert to the leading scores from the prior round completion.

Yes. It's 9 holes (played by all players) to make an official round, 13 to make it a rated round. But remember that in your McBeth/Wysocki example above, only the holes completed by all players would count. Even yesterday, if the rule for counting the round was "any number holes," only the first three holes would count, so Kyle Klein was still trailing Ricky Wysocki.

It's OK as long as we stay ahead of Professional Hurling.

Did you mean "hurling" (the team sport) or "curling" (the duo/trio sport) or hurdling (the individual sport)?
Just curious.

FWIW, the gold medal in mens high jump at the Tokyo Olympics right now was decided by a tie. Rules say if the top participants have the same results throughout the finals, if they both agree they can both take home the gold. If one says no, they go into a jump off. Can you imagine risking gold just because you dont want the other guy to have his share?

Ps. What does a split prize look like? They carve it up right down the middle? "Give me half the bear, Cale!"

For most split prizes or co-champions (that I've been aware of), we allow the victors to each take photos with the trophy, then one takes it with them (usually via coin flip unless somebody says "you take it"), and the TD orders another trophy and later sends it out so each will have their own.

Once the DGPT has tour cards (it is coming), they could ask everyone who is tied for the lead to stick around until the next morning for a playoff. I'm not saying it would be fair, but part of the requirement of having a tour card might be to stick around the next day if the DGPT makes that call. Yesterday, it certainly didn't make logistical sense, but I can see them having a playoff the morning after a tourney was supposed to end to resolve any ties. It wouldn't be as much of a logistical nightmare as having every card finish a round. You'd still need some volunteers, but with the DGPT's employees, there could be enough.

With that said, I didn't see how it was going to happen yesterday. With idlewild in 4 days, that's a lot of time to wait in order to pack stuff up and transport it, employees that might have had days off now don't (or there's one less day to setup for Idlewild), etc. They'd need to have something built in so everyone knows what to do and it's simply a pivot to an extra day of golf rather than establishing a whole new plan.

Question -- and then (as part of the tour card) would you require the DGPT to be responsible for paying for each competitor's extra day of lodging, extra day of meals, rescheduled travel cost and arrangements, and reimburse their possible lost earnings due to having to stay an extra unplanned day??? If not, then who pays/is responsible?

Because if I'm playing and if the cost of having to change my flight last minute, spend an extra night in Illinois, lose/change my ride to & from the course tomorrow morning, cancel the planned money-making clinic or OTB Skins I had scheduled, etc., etc. gets up to somewhere around $2000-$3000, I'm smarter to cut my losses and say "to heck with this! I'm done." The difference in payout between 1st & 2nd being just at about $4,000 makes a couple three thousand dollars in cost very prohibitive for the player. to stay an extra day. Maybe you're thinking of a day with the bright ESPN lights and huge corporate sponsors where this event is paying them A couple hundred thousand dollars. That would be way different imho.

We've got disc watching FANS complaining about they way it went down because they "paid" for the coverage (never mind that Sunday's was free), yet these same people would be losing their minds if DGN subscription went up to the same cost as a Netflix or Hulu or Disney+.
 
This thread is giving me a headache. This is a pretty old PDGA rule, in place for very specific reasons. Perhaps when disc golf reaches the ax throwing, spikeball level of "big time", the rules should be looked at again.

No surprise here, not controversy, no possible changes.....see why I have a headache?

The competition rules don't address the rating system or unique rewards like ace pots, CTPs, etc. Of course sponsored players might have performance incentives in their contracts.

Some players did complete their fourth round (or the 13 holes required by the rating system) under PDGA sanctioned tournament conditions. So, two questions: (1) isn't their data valid for the ratings system, and (2) are they not entitled to any performance rewards they may have earned?
 
One general comment.

I respect the heck out of Nate Heinold. And like everyone I've disagreed with him from time to time, and even asked for his comments about our course and our event. Nate is always a guy doing his best to make his events, and disc golf in general, better.

I get that there were some things that people didn't like about some holes at Northwood Black. But basing everything solely on the scoring average per hole is extremely short-sighted. They need to dig deeper. Did the players getting poor scores try their best to play the hole smartly or as it was designed, or did they try to many hero shots knowing that this course is extremely punishing off the fairways? Look at that. Nate in the course preview description said throw a lot of putters and mids off the tees, yet I still saw players (many of whom got in trouble) throwing 8-9-10-speed drivers when not necessary. Were Paul's "pack-it-in" holes a way of trying to send that message? I think Nate designed an extremely challenging and well-thought-out course. He's responded well in the past going back to when Eureka Temp was played the first time and he later made small changes several years in a row until he got it like what he thought it could be. I think the holes in and of themselves are fine. I do think he is (or should be) most concerned abut the back ups. That's the part that might be priority #1 in tweaking.
 
The competition rules don't address the rating system or unique rewards like ace pots, CTPs, etc. Of course sponsored players might have performance incentives in their contracts.

Some players did complete their fourth round (or the 13 holes required by the rating system) under PDGA sanctioned tournament conditions. So, two questions: (1) isn't their data valid for the ratings system, and (2) are they not entitled to any performance rewards they may have earned?

For Q#2: There performance awards are determined by their sponsor. That is up to them.

As far as counting for ratings, you asked in Q1, "is the data valid for those players who did complete 13 or 18 full holes even though others didn't?" I just want to be sure that is the question-- because that is the one I am answering.

As I understand ratings, the answer is no. Ratings is a norm-reference construct in statistics (meaning is it based upon a comparison of a group). When that whole group is no longer the whole group, then the internal reliability of the set of data is no longer there.
 
The competition rules don't address the rating system or unique rewards like ace pots, CTPs, etc. Of course sponsored players might have performance incentives in their contracts.

Some players did complete their fourth round (or the 13 holes required by the rating system) under PDGA sanctioned tournament conditions. So, two questions: (1) isn't their data valid for the ratings system, and (2) are they not entitled to any performance rewards they may have earned?

The rating system is controlled by the rule. "last completed round". [see below]

Ace pools, CTP's, employer contracts are not within the scope of the PDGA. The tournament and/or sponsor either have verbaige in the contract or should address these issues with the players they impact.

For the other questions [see the below.] (1)...No. (2)....PDGA rewards??? No. Outside entity awards, I don't know....they should ask those entities. We are not availed, nor entitled to that information.


"All suspended rounds shall be completed, unless conditions exist that make it impossible. If such conditions exist, the results shall be final as of the last completed round as long as the necessary round requirements are met. (Refer to PDGA Mid-Event Suspension and Cancellation Policy)."
 
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