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Hey guys, I agree with Jeff, I didn't mean to call him out, but back him up. That last round was not fun. I hope Jeff will accept my apology if he did not enjoy playing on my card. I stand behind the calls that were made.
Jeff was a great guy and was an excellent sportsman all weekend long. If he was having a problem during the final round on Sunday with a rules nazi (and/or me) he certainly didn't show it. He was calm and cool and polite through everything.
It is good to discuss rules experiences like this. It helps everyone see the rules "in action". As far as the provisional call, everything worked out. Jeff calmly convinced us to use the provisional and we got everything settled while playing out the hole.
In the end, it all worked out and Jeff was the Champion.
And while this has nothing to do with rules nazis I was extra peeeved about all the cigarette butts I picked up all weekend. I would clear a tee of every single butt and the next round they all magically reappeared on the ground.
Horsman;2351999[B said:There are a few people here in WI that are known A-Holes and will call people on foot faults that do not occur so that they can get into your head and make you second guess every shot that you take.[/B]
Every time I am forced to play with them I will warn all the people on my card that they do it and just to prepare for it to happen. It happened to me the first time I had to play with them and has happened in every round with them since except for one.
They call foot faults on putting and say that you were not perfectly behind your marker that you performed a falling putt. Ive seen them on multiple occasions call people on foot faults and falling putts for tap ins.
If you go back and read everything I said, it wasn't just this weekend, it seems to be every time I play this event. But in the situation with the misplayed lie, by the book you were right, but the point I was trying to make was he had the option of taking a provisional. Especially since I think he would have an valid argument to make with the TD, that someone else in the group said that was his disc...might have not be upheld, but everyone always has the option of provisional throws.
As for the bush issue, first of all the spotter has zero input into the situation, secondly, I explained the issue to the TD on the next hole and he validate my position that since I wasn't standing on, sitting on or holding back the bush with my hands that I was fine with what I did. And yes I could have gotten into the bush from the other side but I had no shot from that side. And that's why I felt the rules were trying to be implemented to penalize me instead of just being upheld.
As for the bush issue, first of all the spotter has zero input into the situation, secondly, I explained the issue to the TD on the next hole and he validate my position that since I wasn't standing on, sitting on or holding back the bush with my hands that I was fine with what I did. And yes I could have gotten into the bush from the other side but I had no shot from that side. And that's why I felt the rules were trying to be implemented to penalize me instead of just being upheld.
It's your own responsibility to play your own disc. So if you take someone else's word, then it is still your fault when you play the wrong lie.
I'm just taking a shot in dark based on what I've seen in tournies but if you "back into" that bush you are indeed holding it back, it doesn't have to be done with your hands or feet, it can be your body as well. I'd make the same call if I saw you "back into" a bush. I know it's not an easy thing to do, lining up at an awkward lie but that's the most interesting part of the game of Disc Golf in my opinion. Keeps it fresh. Plus, there is also casual relief. Also, anyone can be a certified official, it's an open book exam... :\
Holding the bush back with any part of your body is against the rules, not just holding it with your hands. The exact wording of the rule is that you "must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle" and once in a stance, you "may not move an obstacle in any way in order to make room for a throwing motion".
If every one in the group felt you were using your body, intentionally or not, to push a part of the bush out of its natural position, it's hard to argue convincingly that you weren't. But it sounds like the situation was handled well though, even if you felt you were wronged.
Once again a "RULE" should never be so vague to leave it up to a judgement call when it is self refereed.
I don't think there's anything vague about it. The least movement possible is no movement at all. It's worded as "least movement" to allow for obstacles such as branches of a tree/bush to be moved slightly to allow access to a lie but then the obstacle must return as close as possible to its original position before a throw is made. This is why there are two separate sentences in the rule. Least movement possible when choosing the stance. No movement once the stance is taken.
I have to say I've never seen anyone (myself included) take a hard line approach to this rule such that if a branch is held a quarter inch off its "natural" position, a violation is called. Typically, it has to be blatant disruption of the bush to trigger someone to make a call. Which is why if 2-3 other cardmates and other witnesses (the spotter) all see it enough to say something, I trust there must have been something to their call.
Thank you for proving my point for me perfectly... just basically described what would be called a judgement call...
Okay then. Write a rule to cover obstacles like these that doesn't require a judgment in the moment. It's such a cop out to me to argue that a rule is bad because judgment is involved, when every call of every rule requires a judgment of some sort even the most blatantly clear-cut, black and white ruling possible. And that goes for a self-officiated, peer-officiated, or referee/umpire style officiated game. Changing who makes the call wouldn't change the fact that a judgment has to be made to make a call.
Hey guys, I agree with Jeff, I didn't mean to call him out, but back him up. That last round was not fun. I hope Jeff will accept my apology if he did not enjoy playing on my card. I stand behind the calls that were made.
Jeff was a great guy and was an excellent sportsman all weekend long. If he was having a problem during the final round on Sunday with a rules nazi (and/or me) he certainly didn't show it. He was calm and cool and polite through everything.
It is good to discuss rules experiences like this. It helps everyone see the rules "in action". As far as the provisional call, everything worked out. Jeff calmly convinced us to use the provisional and we got everything settled while playing out the hole.
In the end, it all worked out and Jeff was the Champion.
And while this has nothing to do with rules nazis I was extra peeeved about all the cigarette butts I picked up all weekend. I would clear a tee of every single butt and the next round they all magically reappeared on the ground.
In one of my first tournaments, I played a 3 day event with a guy in rec division and for all 3 days I played with him he called me on the following:
-not having my foot ALL THE WAY up to my mini
-throwing out of turn being 2 inches closer to the basket than the other guy (playing speed of play rule)
-I was warned for being too over excited about a putt I made
-on accident saying the wrong score I got on a hole
-talking to the disc when its in the air
-chest bumping my friend who made a long putt to save par (what is this the NFL?)
-The worst one was when I threw a drive OB, I take my disc out of OB, and then I put my mini down (my mistake), and without even giving me a warning first, he stroked my for not putting my mini down first!!!!!!!!!
Just to play that event I took time off school, I took time off work, I took time off from homework and studying, I made tons of arrangements to stay at a family members house, and on top of all that I paid $100 to play that tourney and all he ever cared about was adding strokes to peoples scores!!!!!!!!!!!! Worst tourney experience of my life!!!!!!!!
This whole thread makes me never want to enter a tournament.
I would do my best to follow the rules to the letter if I did play, but grown men and women arguing inches and semantics to gain a very likely meaningless advantage in a game of disc golf? No thanks.