Disc Golf Rule Nazi Stories

[Cgkdisc]

Wouldn't all the confusion be solved by simply stating that in a chain link fence, the mesh is the OB line? Or state that all fences mesh or otherwise define the OB plane by the inner most part, whether that is post or mesh? Using what you are saying chuck adds an incredible amount of confusion I think.

With chainlink, I think you want to call the outside face of the mesh on the side without the supporting pipes the line. You still may have to make a judgment call when a disc flying at the fence from the OB side hits the very top of the fence and bounces back OB. Did the front edge of the disc briefly cross into IB territory before getting deflected back OB?

 

[jjpitt29]

With chainlink, I think you want to call the outside face of the mesh on the side without the supporting pipes the line. You still may have to make a judgment call when a disc flying at the fence from the OB side hits the very top of the fence and bounces back OB. Did the front edge of the disc briefly cross into IB territory before getting deflected back OB?

Sounds good, that would solve confusion. Why did they change the flex rule from 2001 worlds?

 

[Norcal]

This is the same reason you can't neal on the tee and have your other knee off the tee at the time of release.

I spoke to Neal, and he requested that you leave him out of this discussion.

 

[geoblime]

Wow. I always thought (and obviously incorrectly) there was an imaginary plane/straight line that extended from the inbounds part of the pipe to the top edge and bottom edge of the fence making the OB line. Chuck, you're saying the OB line follows every inch of the fence upwards and downwards, extending out at the pipe, and directly back in? That would make the call in bounds.

Back to the original thread for a sec. I've had a few rules zealots who were extremely competitive and would try to use them as an advantage. Call things that weren't happening, questionable calls, etc. As a whole, playing tourneys for 15+ years, it's very rare and almost nonexistent. Most people want to be competitive and have FUN.

I had a funny one happen which used a little known rule to flip it on the agitator. My disc came to rest in a creek along the bank. Border line call. The disc was very close to inbounds but being held up by some grass/debri. The gentleman who'd been calling things on people all round and generally spouting off about his rule knowledge was the first on scene. He immediately said the disc was OB....go figure. I disagreed and said it looked to be 2% in and it'd be a group call. He said no, it's OB, and proceed to push the disc down which showed there was about a 1/4" of water between land and my disc. I proceeded, with a large smile on my face, to say "see, you just proved that my disc was in". He looked at me totally bewildered and started getting mad saying "no it's not, that's a stroke". I waited calmly for the group to come over and explained to them he moved my disc before a majority call was made thus making it IB. His jaw was on the floor for a minute before he realized what just happened. I calmly said to him as I marked my mini, "I figured you knew that rule considering you know so much more than we do in this group. Maybe you should refresh your knowledge of the rule book again". I promptly made the birdie put and got some extra high fives from the other three guys on the card...not for the birdie but for what I said to the agitator. I don't think he'd ever been called out like that before...he was very subdued for the rest of our round. Go figure how one situation can change the "feel" of a round in either direction.

Disc On!

 

[JC17393]

I had a funny one happen which used a little known rule to flip it on the agitator. My disc came to rest in a creek along the bank. Border line call. The disc was very close to inbounds but being held up by some grass/debri. The gentleman who'd been calling things on people all round and generally spouting off about his rule knowledge was the first on scene. He immediately said the disc was OB....go figure. I disagreed and said it looked to be 2% in and it'd be a group call. He said no, it's OB, and proceed to push the disc down which showed there was about a 1/4" of water between land and my disc. I proceeded, with a large smile on my face, to say "see, you just proved that my disc was in". He looked at me totally bewildered and started getting mad saying "no it's not, that's a stroke". I waited calmly for the group to come over and explained to them he moved my disc before a majority call was made thus making it IB. His jaw was on the floor for a minute before he realized what just happened. I calmly said to him as I marked my mini, "I figured you knew that rule considering you know so much more than we do in this group. Maybe you should refresh your knowledge of the rule book again". I promptly made the birdie put and got some extra high fives from the other three guys on the card...not for the birdie but for what I said to the agitator. I don't think he'd ever been called out like that before...he was very subdued for the rest of our round. Go figure how one situation can change the "feel" of a round in either direction.

Disc On!

Good story.

For educational purposes only, I want to point out that the rule you "got" him with is no longer on the books. There is no longer any language governing what happens if another player moves your disc before a determination can be made. QA44: Another Player Touched My Possibly OB Disc

For clarity, I know you are likely referring to an incident back when the rule was as you state.

 

[Steve West]

Steve, I know what you're saying but it's not a correct interpretation. When simply "the fence" is given as the OB definition, the full contour becomes the IB/OB demarcation within its boundaries top to bottom. That is indicated by the QA where it shows the OB surface bends. Above and below the fence, the last width of "the fence" before projecting upward which includes the pipe in this case defines the plane in that direction and the width of the fence at the bottom indicates the width of the plane projecting downward to the playing surface if there's a gap between the bottom edge of the mesh and the ground.

If the TD had declared the OB line to be the width of the fence at the top which includes the pipe, then the disc in the example would have been OB as would my example of a disc leaning vertically against it on what would appear to be the IB side. However, that would be a nonsensical definition for OB if in fact a disc on what would appear to be the IB side of the fence could be called OB. Non-intuitive.

Even if a wider pipe ran along the bottom of the fence near the ground, it would be nonsensical to use that width as the OB line projected upward. It would make no sense to call a disc on the IB side of that fence that was vertically standing on the pipe and leaning against the mesh OB. That's why the Rules Committee has made the thickness and possible bending or angles of a fence within its upper and lower height the actual OB demarcation within that height range.

Where did the Riles Committee do this? You still haven't pointed me to anything official (meaning written in the Rulebook, Q&A or Competition Manual) that agrees with your interpretation.

The Q&A says the OB line "flexes as the fence flexes". That means that if the fence gets pushed in, the projection of the OB line gets pushed in. That describes a horizontal shift of the OB plane when the fence moves. There is no way to read that as describing an OB which is different at different heights above the ground. Especially since the first part of that very same sentence is "The fence defines an OB plane".

I don't know what you mean by "shows". I can't find any pictures in the Q&A.

Nonsensical and non-intuitive are not the same as incorrect. Just because you don't want to have a disc leaning against the inside of the chain link to be out of bounds, doesn't mean you can (or even need to) make up something about the OB line following the contours of the fence "within that height range".

It does mean the TD needs to be careful about defining OB lines. If "It would make no sense to call a disc on the IB side of that fence that was vertically standing on the pipe and leaning against the mesh OB", then simply define the OB line as the chain links. With a simple solution like that available, why make up things that aren't written anywhere?

If a wall of a building is declared to be the OB line, does the OB line go in the open window, crawl up the far wall, and then jump back over to the top of the window? If a disc goes in the window and lands on top of a bookshelf next to the window, would it be in-bounds?

 

[zenbot]

I spoke to Neal, and he requested that you leave him out of this discussion.

*giggles*

 

[Cgkdisc]

The QA was written because people were making non-intuitive OB calls correctly using verticality from the playing surface when fences flexed, bent, tilted or were odd shaped. Perhaps the RC should make that more clear because the overall goal being missed here was to make sure that a disc on one side or the other of the fence/surface would be considered IB or OB independent of the location of the line on or at the playing surface defined by the edge of the fence/surface at that junction.

In the case of the building, if it could be entered through a window, the TD could simply call the concrete slab the OB area to avoid dealing with the wall surfaces. Even if the TD simply said "inside the building was OB", the only way a disc going in the window could be IB is if it were resting on the window ledge with some of it "outside the building."

 

[1978]

Still may not technically be satisfactory but has come to be accepted as valid once the chainlink flex QA became official. If you take a driver to a chainlink fence, I believe you can contort the disc into an angle where just the smallest amount of the leading disc edge will project slightly past the chain surface. So it's possible a disc can hit the fence at this angle and break the plane even if the fence flexes.

So to be on the safe side as a TD, simply say that discs hitting the chainlink on the OB side and remaining on that side are presumed not to have penetrated the chainlink.

I had this issue in throw down the mountain, cost me probably 4 spots. My disc hit an OB stake square dropped straight down and was ob by about 2". You could see the disc make a relatively deep mark across the entire face of the 1.5" stake. Only way that could happen is if the disc hit square meaning that at least 3" of my disc would have been in bounds at the stake. Because it crossed a corner of OB and was headed back in...group voted 2-3 and I had to go back 30' to an area (last in bounds) with no shot except a pitch out. The area forward had a small line towards the basket. Probably should have taken a provisional but ...oh well.

 

[1978]

Best thing to do is what they do in the USDGC on the bamboo hole. Make the OB line 6-8 inches off the fence.

 

[araytx]

Where did the Riles Committee do this? You still haven't pointed me to anything official (meaning written in the Rulebook, Q&A or Competition Manual) that agrees with your interpretation.

The Q&A says the OB line "flexes as the fence flexes". That means that if the fence gets pushed in, the projection of the OB line gets pushed in. That describes a horizontal shift of the OB plane when the fence moves. There is no way to read that as describing an OB which is different at different heights above the ground. Especially since the first part of that very same sentence is "The fence defines an OB plane".

I don't know what you mean by "shows". I can't find any pictures in the Q&A.

Nonsensical and non-intuitive are not the same as incorrect. Just because you don't want to have a disc leaning against the inside of the chain link to be out of bounds, doesn't mean you can (or even need to) make up something about the OB line following the contours of the fence "within that height range".

It does mean the TD needs to be careful about defining OB lines. If "It would make no sense to call a disc on the IB side of that fence that was vertically standing on the pipe and leaning against the mesh OB", then simply define the OB line as the chain links. With a simple solution like that available, why make up things that aren't written anywhere?

If a wall of a building is declared to be the OB line, does the OB line go in the open window, crawl up the far wall, and then jump back over to the top of the window? If a disc goes in the window and lands on top of a bookshelf next to the window, would it be in-bounds?

Steve what he's talking about is fences that aren't perfectly erect/straight. If a fence is cattywampus in any way, then the OB "line" has to be different at different heights. There's no way around that. If for example a fence is irregularly-shaped or perhaps leaning 10 degrees somewhere along the way, what's inbounds/out-of-bounds at the base of the fence may not be the same if it's stuck in a bush at 3 feet in height. So, though it's not specifically addressed in the rule, if that fence is leaning, you really have no choice (assuming the TD said the fence was the OB/IB boundary). Sorry, I'm with Chuck. It has to be a common sense interpretation.

Btw, the ones that aren't perfectly erect/straight -- that's just about every one.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The take away here is that it's not always obvious what the best way is to define OB when there are fences involved. It's a PITA to have to mark a line offset from the fence a foot or so to avoid using the fence. On the other hand, if you use the fence in some way to define the OB line, it can be tricky using the correct words so rulings for discs landing in unusual positions go the way that "seems right" to the players.

 

[araytx]

The take away here is that it's not always obvious what the best way is to define OB when there are fences involved. It's a PITA to have to mark a line offset from the fence a foot or so to avoid using the fence. On the other hand, if you use the fence in some way to define the OB line, it can be tricky using the correct words so rulings for discs landing in unusual positions go the way that "seems right" to the players.

^^^^^
:clap:

 

[Steve West]

Steve what he's talking about is fences that aren't perfectly erect/straight. If a fence is cattywampus in any way, then the OB "line" has to be different at different heights. There's no way around that. If for example a fence is irregularly-shaped or perhaps leaning 10 degrees somewhere along the way, what's inbounds/out-of-bounds at the base of the fence may not be the same if it's stuck in a bush at 3 feet in height. So, though it's not specifically addressed in the rule, if that fence is leaning, you really have no choice (assuming the TD said the fence was the OB/IB boundary). Sorry, I'm with Chuck. It has to be a common sense interpretation.

Btw, the ones that aren't perfectly erect/straight -- that's just about every one.

Oh, thank you. I have never seen a fence in real life. :\

Anyway, now that I have been edumacated about cattywampus fences...

The way around having an OB line that varies by height is to use the rules as written. The out-of-bounds line represents a vertical plane.

Picture it this way: If the sun were directly overhead, the shadow of the fence would show where the OB line intersects with the playing surface. If the shadow of the fence falls on the disc, that part of the disc is OB for being on the line. Also, if the shadow of the disc falls on the fence, that part of the disc is OB for being on the line.

Your example of "what's inbounds/out-of-bounds at the base of the fence may not be the same if it's stuck in a bush at 3 feet in height" makes my point. Actually, the position of the disc in the bush IS at the base of the fence. (802.02 Establishing Position C. If the disc first comes to rest above or below the playing surface, its position is on the playing surface directly below or above the disc.). A vertical plane helps the OB rule and the above-the-playing surface rule get along nicely.

The Q&A addresses a flexible fence that moved. All it said was that the OB line moved when the fence moved. It does not say the OB line is different at different heights. It did not need to change the written OB rule to give the answer it did.

I agree that sometimes this will result in weird situations like a disc being OB for lying under a part of the fence that leans toward IB. But, that's the way the rule is written. Better to deal with it than create a new rule – known only to some - that can't be looked up and may generate a whole new set of weird circumstances.

The take away here is that it's not always obvious what the best way is to define OB when there are fences involved. It's a PITA to have to mark a line offset from the fence a foot or so to avoid using the fence. On the other hand, if you use the fence in some way to define the OB line, it can be tricky using the correct words so rulings for discs landing in unusual positions go the way that "seems right" to the players.

True.

True for either interpretation. So, we might as well use the one that is written in the rules.

 

[geoblime]

Good story.

For educational purposes only, I want to point out that the rule you "got" him with is no longer on the books. There is no longer any language governing what happens if another player moves your disc before a determination can be made. QA44: Another Player Touched My Possibly OB Disc

For clarity, I know you are likely referring to an incident back when the rule was as you state.

Good to know, thanks!!! It was a long time ago...felt good to give a little back :0

 

[Cgkdisc]

Steve, you are correct that the OB surface is vertical if the TD indicates the OB line is defined where the fence connects with the playing surface. But it creates havoc with nonsensical rulings where the fence is not vertical. That's why the RC now allows the fence surface to define the IB/OB line/surface regardless how its orientation changes along its length. If you don't agree, complain to the RC to see what they have to say. I agree the new interpretation could be written more clearly. But it does jive with how players and TDs intuitively recognize the dividing line between IB/OB in the real world even if the TDs did not state it as clearly as necessary.

 

[Steve West]

Steve, you are correct that the OB surface is vertical if the TD indicates the OB line is defined where the fence connects with the playing surface. But it creates havoc with nonsensical rulings where the fence is not vertical. That's why the RC now allows the fence surface to define the IB/OB line/surface regardless how its orientation changes along its length. If you don't agree, complain to the RC to see what they have to say. I agree the new interpretation could be written more clearly. But it does jive with how players and TDs intuitively recognize the dividing line between IB/OB in the real world even if the TDs did not state it as clearly as necessary.

Back to my original question: How am I to know what the RC allows if I can't find it in the Rules, Q&A or Competition Manual?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Reading about it from Mavens on DGCR is one way.

Read the QA as if it was a more generalized answer where they defined non-vertical OB surfaces for the first time but only gave the flexible fence as an example.

 

[zgmc]

So, why does the TD have any say about where a fence ruled OB starts and ends? It should be a pretty simple rule... I'll start; Any OB, whether designated by a fence, rope, paint, tree, and/or declared by the TD, at the beginning of said tournament, will be considered to run vertically(?), I'm sure that there is a better way of stating it. If you're OB, you're OB. A crooked fence shouldn't be an excuse.

 

[Cgkdisc]

You have the option to declare the base edge of the fence as the line producing the vertical OB plane. But if you simply say the "fence" defines OB, then the plane follows the contour and angle of the fence at any point along it and then projects vertically above the fence from its top line.