biscoe
* Ace Member *
IMO it was worse years ago.
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- Thread starter DavidSauls
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IMO it was worse years ago.
klodkrawler05
Birdie Member
That sounds like just about every volunteer run activity ever. I spent many years as the person in charge of hosting local autocross events. Countless hours finding venues that would allow the events, working with them to secure dates, setting up registration online, acquiring trophies, getting to the event early to setup, staying late after the event to tear down, filing event reports afterwards, dealing with all the trophy winners who dipped out before the awards ceremony but still want you accommodate getting the trophy to them, and on and on.
But then, I knew going into the job that it would be thankless. I didn't do it because I wanted others praise. I did it because I wanted others to experience the same joy I did attending events, and if I could play some small part in that, great. My post was by no means meaning to say that the local c-tier should give out better players packs, and I'm sorry if it came off that way.
But then, I knew going into the job that it would be thankless. I didn't do it because I wanted others praise. I did it because I wanted others to experience the same joy I did attending events, and if I could play some small part in that, great. My post was by no means meaning to say that the local c-tier should give out better players packs, and I'm sorry if it came off that way.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
PDGA would have to change their rules. (which they should)
dmoore1998
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2021
- Messages
- 961
Since the issue was really value...and the value being primarily derived from the player pack...one could simply not offer a player pack that's 3-4x the entry fee. That has the same impact as raising the prices...while no longer impacting folks who don't really want the player pack (or at least not that large of a player pack).
I also tend to think that something like Ledgestone is a bit of an anomaly. Charge a bunch of money...that doesn't mean a $45 entry to something local has to go up. The Super Bowl can charge outrageous prices without the local HS team needing to raise theirs. Disclaimer: I haven't played Ledgestone, but I know people who have. It has always seemed to have an amateur air of a party/social gathering more than what a local tournament might.
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
(Disclaimer: never been a TD).
My understanding is that the payouts are based on the "pay ins". If a TD raises the registration fees, the payouts have to increase (more cash for the pro divisions, and more in the player's pack for AMs). So the TD really doesn't get a big increase in pay. The PDGA needs to change and allow a certain amount from each registration to go to the TD "off the top" and then the rest to payouts/Player's packs.
My understanding is that the payouts are based on the "pay ins". If a TD raises the registration fees, the payouts have to increase (more cash for the pro divisions, and more in the player's pack for AMs). So the TD really doesn't get a big increase in pay. The PDGA needs to change and allow a certain amount from each registration to go to the TD "off the top" and then the rest to payouts/Player's packs.
Yes, and no. Yes, the payout matches the entries. But if the TD is obtaining the payout at wholesale and paying it out at retail, he retains a percentage. So if the entries and payouts doubled, his portion would also double.
There are a lot of variables, of course. And that margin shouldn't be characterized as "pay" or "profit", but as income, a portion of which may go to fixed expenses, or towards course improvements.
I recognize a supply/demand imbalance argues for increased entry fees to match demand, but I'd prefer a solution that doesn't involve making it much more expensive. "More supply", of course, is the best solution, but requires someone to actually do it.
I am likely an outlier, but tournament price is about value to me. I don't mind paying more, but what am I getting. I don't want more player's pack, heck....I don't really want any.
If the price gets much higher, I will just quit playing tournaments in lieu of league to get the competition.
dmoore1998
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2021
- Messages
- 961
That's where I think the player pack thing is kind of silly. Essentially you're buying 2 things...you're buying entry into a tournament, and you're buying the items in the player pack (presumably at some level of discount at the bigger/sponsored tournaments) rolled into 1 fee.
I'm with you. If I can go to an NBA game for $50...or I can go for $80 and get a "free jersey giveaway"...it's only worth it to me if I want the jersey for $30. I don't really get it from a TD perspective...because it's added work on their part (and I assume added aggravation). Maybe it's simply a byproduct of people demanding things not in their own best interest? Slap "free" on something, and a LOT of people don't even consider that they're actually paying for it to be free.
I describe players packs as "being bribed with my own money".
It seems to me that the huge amateur player packs at those major tournaments (at least the ones I have been to) are a move by manufacturers to get their products into the hands of players from throughout North America and even the world, quite often including the release of new products (new bags, new discs, discs in different plastics for the first time). This benefits the players by giving them new great stuff and benefits the manufacturers by initiating or building familiarity and loyalty among players, both ones that come to the tournaments and ones that play with those players back home. The entry fees don't drive the player packs at those events, the sponsorship dollars do.
Agreed. Slightly different reason, but affecting the outcome wonderfully, is that the upgraded Tournament Manager is immensely easier and saves all kinds of time.
Billipo
Birdie Member
"Thankless" is not the same as "easy"....
It used to be more like entertaining "good friends" at your home.... now worse than "in-laws".
biscoe
* Ace Member *
I wasn't referencing it as easier. IMO the cats (Ams) of today are much easier to herd than the cats of the late 90's. Many of them are even receptive to the idea that TD's should be compensated for their efforts. If I could go back in time I would like to kick whoever came up with the concept of huge Amateur payouts squarely in the nads.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Large amateur payouts including series bonuses are what funded growth on the competitive side of the sport. Any in-depth analysis of how the money flowed to build the sport since Duane Utech (soon followed by other clubs) got merch certificates underway in the early 90s would show that to be true.
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
I'm an amateur (oh boy am I ever) and here is my opinion about Player's Packs.
At first, I thought they were cool. Look at this stuff I'm getting! A disc golf towel...oh, look at this cool disc....etc.
Then, oh, another distance driver I can't use because I can't throw that speed. Why can't I get a midrange or a fairway driver? Oh, another towel to add to my 6 other ones in my closet. Oh, another Birdie Bag (or something similar)...into my closet. Oh, another mini...at least I'll have another one to give out to a player that doesn't have one.
I'm paying $50 (in most cases) for a tournament as a MA3 player I'd be happy with no Player's Pack. Or if a sponsor wants a Player's Pack supplied...make it a gift certificate that I can use on their site to pick what I can use. Or let me pick my choice (type of disc, etc) when I register.
Now there are tournaments that are specifically to get certain discs into players hands. Usually they aren't sanctioned and you can only use the discs supplied (Race for Ace, etc). That's different. But for regular tournaments....I'd be good with the Player's Pack going away.
At first, I thought they were cool. Look at this stuff I'm getting! A disc golf towel...oh, look at this cool disc....etc.
Then, oh, another distance driver I can't use because I can't throw that speed. Why can't I get a midrange or a fairway driver? Oh, another towel to add to my 6 other ones in my closet. Oh, another Birdie Bag (or something similar)...into my closet. Oh, another mini...at least I'll have another one to give out to a player that doesn't have one.
I'm paying $50 (in most cases) for a tournament as a MA3 player I'd be happy with no Player's Pack. Or if a sponsor wants a Player's Pack supplied...make it a gift certificate that I can use on their site to pick what I can use. Or let me pick my choice (type of disc, etc) when I register.
Now there are tournaments that are specifically to get certain discs into players hands. Usually they aren't sanctioned and you can only use the discs supplied (Race for Ace, etc). That's different. But for regular tournaments....I'd be good with the Player's Pack going away.
esdubya
Double Eagle Member
Our event team this year has a goal this year of hosting an even 50% split of competitors between women and men.
My idea for how to help achieve this is to open up the registration for the women's divisions at least a week (or 2 or 3) earlier than the mixed divisions. This is all kosher to do I assume? Anyone else thinking about this kind of thing?
My idea for how to help achieve this is to open up the registration for the women's divisions at least a week (or 2 or 3) earlier than the mixed divisions. This is all kosher to do I assume? Anyone else thinking about this kind of thing?
biscoe
* Ace Member *
No evidence exists that the growth would not have occurred without them- all we know is that the growth did occur. It's the easiest LCD way to raise money- I will give you that.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Pretty much all of the top events in this area have some sort of favorable registration arrangements for women whether it be early registration or reserved spots. Often some portion of the entry fee is subsidized as well.
In August we are running an all ladies B tier which will have an entry fee of $0. It is my hope we can draw 72 for that.
dmoore1998
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2021
- Messages
- 961
Agree completely with this for almost all events. The only real reason I see a positive with player packs is for kids. I'm from a small town where we had one person into disc golf who got us a course built at the park. Then he ran tournaments mostly geared toward getting youth involved...the entrance fee was slightly more than the cost of a disc...and when you signed up the day-of...you picked out a disc you wanted with his help (if you'd never played before, typically you got a putter or mid). That was great, because at the time there was nowhere nearby you could reliably go to even get a disc, and everyone walked away with one they could now play with. Other than that, I see no great reason for player packs.
Also I can only imagine how annoying it is for TDs to constantly be answering "what's going to be in the pack"...but that's mostly their own fault. If you're running a system where part of what a player is doing with their entry fee is buying something, it's only logical they'll want to know what it is they're buying.
