McBeth vs. Climo

[takman]

Fair enough, but he's still won three of the last four tournaments he's played. And I think classifying the #4 rated player in the world as just "a 20 year old" is misleading in an attempt to make the lone second place finish look worse.

It could have been anybody, my point was the guy being proclaimed as the new GOAT and wiping the floor this year, did not win the event he played in LAST weekend. And your #4 in the world finished 17th almost 20 shots back THIS weekend. They win and they lose but nobody is even close to the career of KC. I wouldn't even put PM second, that would stay with Barry.

 

[Fly_High]

IMO Paul is the best player of all time when at the top of his game but Kenny is still the greatest player of all time.

This pretty much sums it up.

 

[dorseymatt]

Climo was rated in the low 1040s in 2006. I'm assuming he would have been throwing a Wraith as his distance driver at that point. Anyone know how far he was throwing? And, had he lost any power by then? He would have been about 38 years old.

 

[Shamis]

Both were great, Mcbeth is obviously better, he's got huge distance, forehand or backhand, good utility shots, good rollers, and very good putting.

That being said, I think there's a good chance Eagle will be taking over in a year or two because he has all those things and more distance. And the fact that he can throw grenades or spike hyzers to create lines that nobody else can do is probably going to result in him basically breaking the game.

 

[Three Putt]

IMO Paul is the best player of all time when at the top of his game but Kenny is still the greatest player of all time. This could change and YMMV.

Something I kinda remember was in the late 90's the Daveiar came back from the Florida Triple Crown and in one of the events Climo had finished outside the top five. It was some sort of shocker because a) he owned the Florida Triple Crown and b) he never finished outside the top five. He was always in the hunt. We won more than he lost, and when he lost you had to beat him because usually he was going to be second. The dominance was more than just at World's; he dominated everything he played in for five or six years of those nine straight years he won World's. As some players started to catch up with him late in that run, he was still unbeatable at World's. You had to string together a lot of rounds to win back then, and nobody could bring their A game round after round like Climo could.

Of course the field was softer with fewer great players, so it was easier for him to do that. You still have to do it, though. That's mental toughness. There wasn't a lot of money to be made, you had to win to make it pay. He mentally showed up every week. He had the physical skills and the mental toughness to totally dominate and he did in a way that nobody ever is going to be able to again.

But apples/oranges; no idea if given the same scenario McBeth could do the same.

 

[lyleoross]

Just means this thread is stupid. Not sure what his socks have to do with it.

Wait, it was your expectation that this thread, or any thread, was anything other than entertainment? Is there a thread somewhere that meets the expectation of greatness, in terms of a discussion of who is the greatest player of all time, a GOAT thread, so to speak?

I suspect that the two guys in the world who are the least concerned about this discussion, this thread, and the issue in general, are Paul and Kenny.

 

[biscoe]

Something I kinda remember was in the late 90's the Daveiar came back from the Florida Triple Crown and in one of the events Climo had finished outside the top five. It was some sort of shocker because a) he owned the Florida Triple Crown and b) he never finished outside the top five. He was always in the hunt. We won more than he lost, and when he lost you had to beat him because usually he was going to be second. The dominance was more than just at World's; he dominated everything he played in for five or six years of those nine straight years he won World's. As some players started to catch up with him late in that run, he was still unbeatable at World's. You had to string together a lot of rounds to win back then, and nobody could bring their A game round after round like Climo could.

Of course the field was softer with fewer great players, so it was easier for him to do that. You still have to do it, though. That's mental toughness. There wasn't a lot of money to be made, you had to win to make it pay. He mentally showed up every week. He had the physical skills and the mental toughness to totally dominate and he did in a way that nobody ever is going to be able to again.

But apples/oranges; no idea if given the same scenario McBeth could do the same.

Ken's hatred of losing at anything is legendary. It is hard to verbalize how shocking it was when Ron ended the string at Worlds- the thought that someone other than Ken would win Worlds simply did not enter anyone's head.

 

[Dcinmd]

How about dunking over a car?

That basket can't be any higher than 8 1/2'.

 

[lyleoross]

That basket can't be any higher than 8 1/2'.

Yeah, but he had to accommodate the skateboarder, that doubles the difficulty. I still give him a nine.

 

[JC17393]

That basket can't be any higher than 8 1/2'.

I call foul on calling that jumping over a car. He jumped over the corner of the trunk. He was barely over the car at all.

 

[ChrisWoj]

IMO Paul is the best player of all time when at the top of his game but Kenny is still the greatest player of all time. This could change and YMMV.

Second reply. Best reply.

Paul McBeth might be the best disc golfer of all time, but the difference between Paul and the field right now just isn't as big as the difference between Climo and his fields. Speaking in terms of actual discrete skills - watching video its clear that Climo didn't develop the ability that Paul has, even if that was only because his field didn't push him to do it. When Paul came on the scene he seemed to have an innate natural skill that none of the other youngsters had, he's a once-a-generation guy in terms of his focus and the work put in, but he's already been surpassed/matched as an athlete by a lot of other top guys. The next GREATEST OF ALL TIME to come around, the guy who pushes Climo to 1B on Rushmore, will be someone who grows up with the game, develops a true single-minded focus on the game like Climo/McBeth, as well as with the sort of elite athletic ability that makes for a pro athlete in sports like basketball, football, or soccer.

I like to say that Climo is like our Old Tom Morris. Our first recognizable dominant champion - winning them all. I thought for a moment that Ricky/Paul/Will would be the equivalent to our Great Triumvirate - the threesome that took the next era in golf. Three guys on a whole new level, paving the way for the future. Maybe one of the new kids will be the Ben Hogan of disc golf someday. One thing's for sure - disc golf hasn't even had a Jack Nicklaus, much less a Tiger Woods.

 

[lyleoross]

I call foul on calling that jumping over a car. He jumped over the corner of the trunk. He was barely over the car at all.

The bigger question becomes, would jumping over the entire car equal break dancing with a beer in your hand? And by jumping over a car are we talking door to door, or trunk to hood?

Right now it feels like Kenny has the lead.

 

[lyleoross]

Second reply. Best reply.

Paul McBeth might be the best disc golfer of all time, but the difference between Paul and the field right now just isn't as big as the difference between Climo and his fields. Speaking in terms of actual discrete skills - watching video its clear that Climo didn't develop the ability that Paul has, even if that was only because his field didn't push him to do it. When Paul came on the scene he seemed to have an innate natural skill that none of the other youngsters had, he's a once-a-generation guy in terms of his focus and the work put in, but he's already been surpassed/matched as an athlete by a lot of other top guys. The next GREATEST OF ALL TIME to come around, the guy who pushes Climo to 1B on Rushmore, will be someone who grows up with the game, develops a true single-minded focus on the game like Climo/McBeth, as well as with the sort of elite athletic ability that makes for a pro athlete in sports like basketball, football, or soccer.

I like to say that Climo is like our Old Tom Morris. Our first recognizable dominant champion - winning them all. I thought for a moment that Ricky/Paul/Will would be the equivalent to our Great Triumvirate - the threesome that took the next era in golf. Three guys on a whole new level, paving the way for the future. Maybe one of the new kids will be the Ben Hogan of disc golf someday. One thing's for sure - disc golf hasn't even had a Jack Nicklaus, much less a Tiger Woods.

Do you feel like we haven't had a Jack or Tiger because neither Paul or Kenny had the depth of talent around them? Just want some perspective. Interesting thinking.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Do you feel like we haven't had a Jack or Tiger because neither Paul or Kenny had the depth of talent around them? Just want some perspective. Interesting thinking.

I look at it as a combination of depth of talent as well as the general size of the sport in terms of wealth/player earnings. Player earnings matter to me because their earnings facilitate their travel. We're just getting to the point where more than just the very top guys can travel overseas regularly - thanks to either money sponsors can afford to spend or the players can earn and spend on their own travel. This lines up more with the early 1900s in golf than the eras of Jack or Tiger. Player mobility plays a huge role in getting the best of the best the chance to compete with each other every week. This lack of money coming in also pushes guys who could be all timers off of the sport. Where would Wiggins and Stenfelt sit if they had spent the 2010s touring around the world (Stenfelt was in the 990s at 13 years old, I believe... and I assume we all remember that Wiggins was the younger and better talent than Wysocki as a golfer, not just a distance thrower)?

With the growth of the sport - I do think we're pushing through these barriers quicker than golf did. I think that we're starting to arrive, very quickly, at the state golf was in in the 1960s as Nicklaus was showing up. Look at the results of his Major wins and you see as they go on the increase in international players in the top 10 rising quickly into the 1970s in US events, where they're already showing a broad diaspora of finishers at The Open in Britain.

 

[Spiky]

If Disc Golf were basketball today, it would be about 1929.

Considering true pro basketball didn't really catch on until the late 1930s, I'd put that date a little later. Maybe 1949.

And then the GOAT would obviously be Mikan.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Considering true pro basketball didn't really catch on until the late 1930s, I'd put that date a little later. Maybe 1949.

And then the GOAT would obviously be Mikan.

1949 is a pretty important year to choose - the year the NBL officially folded into the BAA and the league changed its name to the NBA. Basically the beginning of the true consolidation of professional leagues into one big league, with lesser lights still hoping to compete. It also fits as players were still taking side jobs to survive. I know that Boston players from the 1950s are quoted as saying they needed the championship bonus to pay their summer bills, otherwise they'd be stuck taking side jobs and couldn't train to maintain the level of play.

 

[Always Hyzer Lines]

I don't know if we will ever see a player equal to Ken's mental toughness or overall athleticism. Kenny was vicious on the course. He wanted to make you quit. He was incredibly intimidating to play against. I don't see that in today's players. His turnovers are a thing of beauty and I think that skill is somewhat lost given today's players ability to throw a forehand. I absolutely recognize the need for a forehand but I don't see the 350' turnover Roc shots like I used to. Kenny is a master of that shot. His rollers are at a level I don't see in the present game either. To answer someone's post above, I could throw Teebirds 430-440 consistently and had no chance of beating Ken in distance.

Paul McBeth is the total package. If we picked the top five skills that make a good disc golfer, Paul is either the best or top three at all of them. He is the best at many attributes such as putting and specifically pressure putting. I've never seen anyone better at distance plus accuracy. I'm not sure anyone is even close to him in the ability to put a piece of plastic where he wants it at 400-500 feet.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

Has anyone else noticed how much disdain Climo has for McBeth? He's made it very clear on facebook, with zingers such as "get those McNuts out of your mouth" Clearly there is some jealousy/resentment there. It's hard to blame him though, McBeth gets to tour in relative luxury comparatively. He gets to train at his own facility, whereas Kenny would have to work construction during the week.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

I'm very comfortable saying Climo was the greatest player during our sport's earlier days and McBeth is the greatest player since. We can have it both ways. I'm also comfortable imagining both of them would be competitive with one another if McBeth was born in 1969 or if Climo was born in 1990 and they had to grow up with the same variables in play.

 

[lyleoross]

Has anyone else noticed how much disdain Climo has for McBeth? He's made it very clear on facebook, with zingers such as "get those McNuts out of your mouth" Clearly there is some jealousy/resentment there. It's hard to blame him though, McBeth gets to tour in relative luxury comparatively. He gets to train at his own facility, whereas Kenny would have to work construction during the week.

I don't Facebook for a reason. It encourages us to act reprehensible. This place is only marginally better. If Climo has really done this than I admit to a lot of disappointment.

In fact,i admit that the use of foul language directed at some other person online bugs me per se.