Mold minimalism and over marketing?

[Three Putt]

I agree with what you wrote and how you explained things. IMO it's important to separate the terms mold minimalism and dics minimalism, because they are different things. They are orthogonal. I don't like people say ``mold minimalism'' and talk about throwing different angels. These two things have nothing to do with each other. Clarity is necessary for real understanding.

The Garu bag starts with four discs in four molds (i.e. disc minimal, and absolutely seen mold minimal but relatively seen mold maximal). Then it proposes to start adding multiples of the same molds, i.e. no more disc minimalism but then absolute and relative mold minimalism. Garublador carries the same thinking as Blake_T. They both were active on the DGR forums.

Disc minimalism is more a style of living than a final bag for playing the best disc golf possible. It can help becoming better but most likely it is not what you should continue to do if you advance and want to compete as high as possible. More discs ease more lines. You don't have to force it as much. But a (not too unimportant) part of the game is having fun and playing the way that fits yourself. Some like crowded houses, owning a lot of things, generally having a lot of stuff in their lifes, others rather like empty rooms, owning few stuff, going lightweight in life. Their disc golf bag only reflects their lifestyle, their character, what is important to them and what is not. Because they feel good they play better. If you feel good bagging 25 discs, fine. If you feel good playing with only three discs in the hand, also fine.

The thread starter asked for insights. Insights are personal and thus controversal. He got them. There need not to be a solution or agreement.

The thing that is important to me is using different terms for different things, i.e. having the language match the underlying structure. I don't care if mold minimalism is ``better'' than disc minimalism, I just want them to be called differently because they are different things. Some practice the former, some the latter. Some do it generally and long-term, some only temporary.

For myself, the above quote of Three Putt fits well in the way that I practice disc minimalism for fun and personal challenge, plus it just fits my character and way of life. Competition, especially against others!, is not why I play disc golf. I simply want to get the best out of whatever disc I throw. I don't suggest it for competing on a high level ... unless you are an exception like Crazy John Brooks or sonny.

We don't disagree so I'm beating a dead horse and adding something that I don't think was clear (probably a language thing so more my fault than yours). If disc minimalism is a separate thing from mold minimalism, it's important to note that as a learning tool the goal is the same. The goal is for you to work angles and execute shots so that you learn how what you are doing effects the flight of the disc.

Easy example: I wrist roll a lot. Before I tried mold minimalism, I'd roll my wrist and then blame disc selection for my bad shot. Mold minimalism made me a lot more in tune with what I'm doing, so instead of walking off the course frustrated not knowing why everything turned over and I threw +20 I now can figure out after a few shots that I'm rolling my wrist open and start making adjustments before I turn over every shot I take all day. I'll get out of there with a better score and I'll know what I need to work on.

Both disc minimalism and mold minimalism will teach you that.

Mold minimalism goes farther than disc minimalism, though. You end up with overstable/stable/understable versions of discs and you learn how each of them reacts when you throw with hyzer/flat/anhyzer and the mysteries of the flex shot and hyzer flip are there. Throwing the same neutral disc on a flex or hyzer flip doesn't really illustrate what weapons those shots are IMO.

So as a learning tool, if they are separate things I'd have to say disc minimalism is incomplete mold minimalism. Disc minimalism starts the process, but stops where mold minimalism moves on.

On the other hand, as a personal challenge there is a greater obstacle to utilizing the same disc for a flex and hyzer flip so if you can do that there would be a higher level of Frisbee zen achieved. If you already know the shots and are adopting mold minimalism or disc minimalism as a personal challenge (either with the goal to improve or just because challenge is what drives you) the inverse is true. Mold minimalism is incomplete disc minimalism. in that case, which one you would adopt would depend on how big a challenge you want to bite off.

Basically if you are going to adopt these strategies, you need to know why you are doing it and what you want to get out of it. For me I wanted to stop throwing +20 with no idea why and mold minimization was the ticket out. For you it's the personal zen challenge of mastering the angles and disc minimization does that better.

 

[Dingus]

I guess I'm doing it wrong. I expect a mold minimalist bag to be my best end result bag. I cycle discs not to train myself but because I think a Roc cycle will do more work for me than any combination of other various molds.

 

[Three Putt]

I guess I'm doing it wrong. I expect a mold minimalist bag to be my best end result bag. I cycle discs not to train myself but because I think a Roc cycle will do more work for me than any combination of other various molds.

It can and it can't. A Roc cycle may be the best selection for you. It may not be the best selection for somebody else and won't necessarily make you better at your mid game than someone who doesn't, it can just make you better than you would be it you were throwing a hodgepodge of different molds.

Cycling Rocs makes me better than I am when I don't cycle Rocs so I cycle Rocs. The consistency of the grip and the familiarity of a turnover disc I've been throwing off and on for over 20 years makes me more comfortable and confident than I would be with a Meteor or Buzzz SS or something like that. Confidence is key.

 

[Monocacy]

. . . On the other hand, as a personal challenge there is a greater obstacle to utilizing the same disc for a flex and hyzer flip so if you can do that there would be a higher level of Frisbee zen achieved.

Frisbee zen, I like that.

I remember playing a one-driver round with an S-FD. Very neutral driver - you can throw it anny, you can throw hyzer, or you can throw a tight S-curve, FH and BH. But I needed a big S-curve and the ceiling was high so I threw a sky anny high that faded on the way down. Perfect S-curve, landed exactly where I wanted.

Is that the most reliable way to throw an S-curve? No way. Do I still remember that throw, while forgetting thousands of boring but reliable hyzers? Yup. That was fun. And I learned something about how my disc flies.

And, every once in a while, the non-intuitive shot turns out to be the best way to attack a tricky hole.

But I rarely play scored rounds. So if you want to do well in competition, don't listen to me lol.

 

[Jukeshoe]

I embrace mold minimalism because I'm a disc golf cheapskate. :|

 

[ballgolfconvert]

I can't keep discs long enough to beat them in properly, too much water on my courses. Everything is either fresh or nearly fresh. So no point in trying to minimize molds for me. I envy the guys who say they have been throwing the same disc for 20 years.

 

[Rastnav]

On the other hand, as a personal challenge there is a greater obstacle to utilizing the same disc for a flex and hyzer flip so if you can do that there would be a higher level of Frisbee zen achieved. If you already know the shots and are adopting mold minimalism or disc minimalism as a personal challenge (either with the goal to improve or just because challenge is what drives you) the inverse is true. Mold minimalism is incomplete disc minimalism. in that case, which one you would adopt would depend on how big a challenge you want to bite off.

The more I read, the more I wonder how many trees are on the courses people are playing.

I mean sure, I'm a noob, but there are some basics I understand, and you aren't going to throw a hyzer flip and a flex with the same disc unless the course lets you do that. It's got be a flex that requires way less power or a really wide line and a high ceiling.

Don't get me wrong, I threw a flex with a Saphire today, and that would be a hyzer-flip disc in other hands. But I think you wouldn't be able to throw that Saphire on flip line on that hole unless you were planning on hitting something to stop you.

 

[Meillo]

Thanks for the additional ``beating the dead horse'' post, Three Putt. It's still interesting to get into the minor parts.

I can follow everything you wrote. No disagreement, only different perspectives.

Mold minimalism goes farther than disc minimalism, though. You end up with overstable/stable/understable versions of discs and you learn how each of them reacts when you throw with hyzer/flat/anhyzer and the mysteries of the flex shot and hyzer flip are there. Throwing the same neutral disc on a flex or hyzer flip doesn't really illustrate what weapons those shots are IMO.

Maybe there's a slight misunderstanding or just different ways of approaching disc golf. My stack of practice discs has all the varieties and some cycles to practice all those throws you describe. I use them for field practice and sometimes on the course for two or three disc rounds to practice the lines I don't usually throw or the same lines with discs I don't usually throw. Thus, in practice I have all what you describe. I practice this stuff to learn it, and I experiment with it on the course to maybe discover that now something works that I haven't been able to perform or simply haven't used yet.

In tournament play my bag is always small (6-7 discs) and meanwhile pretty settled in it's structure, i.e. the slots it has. In the rounds I play on courses my bag/hand is between 1 and 8 discs, most times 3 or 4. These are few discs but I don't go with three neutral discs -- putter, mid, driver -- as sonny for instance does. As I don't bag mids, I have only two speed classes, in which I have discs of different stabilities. Thus I can utilize release angles in more ways than with neutral discs only.


One could question the separation of practice, course play, and tournaments. To me, the three are very distinct. That might be a cultural problem. I usually disc golf alone. There are no weekly leagues or such around here. My friends don't play. Besides my big interest in the physics of disc flight, I do like building bags a lot. A large amount of my disc golf time is discovering, trying and confirming bag setups, each one small, of course. I like to compare StarValkyrie-StarTeebird-putter to DXTeebird-StarTeebird-putter or DXEagle-ChampEagle-putter on the course, or Teebird-putter against Eagle-putter, or straight driver against straight-to-fade driver ... and then again let any bag compete against Comet-putter, just for humilation ;-) ... or because watching a Comet fly is so devine that it makes me question all the fast discs completely each time again. These processes are mainly what makes disc golf attractive to me. All this experimenting, reading stuff here and trying it myself on the course, trying to understand what is meant, learning a wide variety of throwing techniques ... this is disc golf to me. (... well, sorry for drifting a bit into my personal perspective.)

 

[mr.smOOOth]

After taking a four year break, it's pretty funny to watch the 'In the Bag' videos and see so many different molds being carried. Interesting, but I can imagine that someone new to the sport could unknowingly have a bit of overlap. Ha! When I started I bought a KC Pro Cheetah, Gazelle, Teebird and Eagle. I took me a few months to realize two of those molds were not necessary. I guess that is part of the fun. For me though, I didn't start to really improve until I focused on throwing the Teebird on every angle I could and learning the flight paths.

Stay safe everyone and have fun!

 

[azplaya25]

The more I read, the more I wonder how many trees are on the courses people are playing.

I mean sure, I'm a noob, but there are some basics I understand, and you aren't going to throw a hyzer flip and a flex with the same disc unless the course lets you do that. It's got be a flex that requires way less power or a really wide line and a high ceiling.

Don't get me wrong, I threw a flex with a Saphire today, and that would be a hyzer-flip disc in other hands. But I think you wouldn't be able to throw that Saphire on flip line on that hole unless you were planning on hitting something to stop you.

I think it's all about nose angle...definitely doable if you have a workable disc. Regarding the presence of trees - I'd only be throwing either of these shots because of trees. If if a boring wide open hole, I'm throwing a boring, predictable hyzer.


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[mojorooks]

These are the main types of players I see on the course/leagues/tournaments in my area.

C) The weekender one league night a week guy. Has an Innova standard bag with the same 10 disc he's had for the last 5 years. He could care less what anyone else throws, he's just out to get away for a while and have some fun. Usually not a bad player, just doesn't have the time or interest in getting better. But these guys are usually fun to play with and appreciate a good shot.

This would be me. I get to play once a week, twice if I'm lucky. Except even tho I don't have a ton of time to play, I do have some spare time at work to read. So I have a better than standard bag although its only about 6 discs.

Regarding Rastnav's post, I recently replaced my old Z buzzz but realizing that the old one flies a bit understable, I'm thinking of adding it back in as a separate slot. Take this same situation and multiply it by 15 years and I would have what he is referring to.

 

[Streets]

I'll I have to say is that I played a tourney this weekend and got a good chuckle out of the McBeth wannabees toting around carts and huge Grip bags around a short woods course while I had 3-4 discs in an Innova standard bag.

 

[tbonesocrul]

With newer players I always encourage disc and mold minimization b/c it lowers the amount of variables you can pick wrong. A big factor that newer players don't even realize is how much their form/release matters and how inconsistent they are. Because it helped me understand my flaws as a thrower and led to massive improvements in my game I always recommend grabbing 3-4 copies of a disc you like so you can "know" the differences in results is a reflection of your throwing abilities.

Additionally, I think newer players can understand the impact of turn & fade flight numbers but don't understand the significance of hyzer/flat/anny releases. So they describe the results of their throws to the few parameters they currently understand.

Now as a more mature player, I definitely have a few molds that I love to throw because they feel better in the hand. I have at least 10 of these discs in various plastic types because I didn't know which plastics I would like best, how quickly they might beat in, or how different they would fly fresh. I love the buzzz and now I can hit a bunch of lines with my Fresh ESP/Beat ESP/Jawbreaker combo.

Of course when I lose my beat-in favorites its hard to quickly get a replacement so I do have some unique molds that I keep around for those trying times.

 

[Rastnav]

I think it's all about nose angle...definitely doable if you have a workable disc. Regarding the presence of trees - I'd only be throwing either of these shots because of trees. If if a boring wide open hole, I'm throwing a boring, predictable hyzer.

Changing the nose angle is going to turn a hyzer-flip into a flex shot? Can anyone confirm that?

What happens to a shot thrown on anny with a flippy disc if you leave the nose angle up? That would seem to be the right question? IDK.

 

[azplaya25]

Changing the nose angle is going to turn a hyzer-flip into a flex shot? Can anyone confirm that?

What happens to a shot thrown on anny with a flippy disc if you leave the nose angle up? That would seem to be the right question? IDK.

Throwing a disc nose up makes it more stable. In your OP, you mentioned that you can't get a roc to turn over because it's too stable. So you you throw a less stable disc, nose up, it's going to act more stable, and flex just like that Roc. Especially if you have a tail wind. Same disc, thrown hard and nose down, will hyzer flip up to flat.
These are all fun things you can try if you really get to know your equipment and aren't just trying to throw one of your 27 discs flat


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[GripEnemy]

Changing the nose angle is going to turn a hyzer-flip into a flex shot? Can anyone confirm that?

What happens to a shot thrown on anny with a flippy disc if you leave the nose angle up? That would seem to be the right question? IDK.

First, do you play around lots of trees? I saw you mention it a few posts back. I play around tons.


Kind of, yeah. Then there's added variables like spin control that I won't get into (most players don't possess this much). A beat Cobra can be released on the same hyzer angle and achieve many different flights. Powering up and down of course affects how much turn and fade occurs, but so does the nose angle. My, "turn and never come back" throw with that Cobra is less spin, nose down, higher trajectory - regardless of how hard I throw it. Lower trajectory with a nose up release will still flip to flat, turn, and then fade. Flex shots truly are more forcing over an overstable mold then waiting for the fade to eventually occur. My nose up Cobra example emulates a flex shot, but to split hairs it is not.


Flippy anhyzer is a bit more complicated (well, simple actually). Depending which mold it is and how much anny release you throw with, nose angle may not matter at all regarding fade. An Innova Kite thrown nose up anhyzer will stay in the air longer and travel farther right RHBH. The same disc thrown nose down will "turn and burn" quicker, hitting the ground sooner with less distance in any direction more often than not.

Sure, you could throw it super high to defeat my point I just made but how often does anyone throw a sky anny than isn't for maxD in an open field?

 

[Rastnav]

First, do you play around lots of trees? I saw you mention it a few posts back. I play around tons.

I'm in NC, so heavily wooded describes the vast majority of the courses. The closest course to me, AFAIK, that isn't a heavily wooded course is Cedarock (a classic) which is about an hour away and jam packed on weekends. Playing solo at Cedarock feels a little like being the guy at the party who doesn't know anyone there. Fun course, though.

There are a few holes on the UNC course that still run on the old ball golf fairways, but not many. Been a while since I played out there. I should probably give that course another go.

But anyway, most shots around here run into ceiling issues at some point. Heck, I can't even find decent practice fields due to Covid having shut all the athletic fields. Grumble grumble.

 

[Tinkles]

I see camps that advocate for "flight minimalism" - only carrying certain discs so that you have to learn different ways to manipulate the throw to achieve different patterns. Then you have the mold minimalists who advocate for the same hand feel.

In the case of the latter, it is personal preference in that to me a verdict/emac/tursas all have similar hand feel.

In the case of the former, I see the value in that, but also see that people following that approach might also not learn flights of a disc like a tursas where I can throw it on a steep hyzer and expect it to have a slow gliding fade that will finish more left than an emac. I think you can learn your discs and still have different flights to give you different options on the course.

Ultimately, we will all tend to go with the disc/shot selection that makes us most comfortable to achieve the desired outcome.

I personally tend toward cycling drivers, not because I think that is the best approach, but because when my Wraith or CD2 changes flight, I add a new one to have the more stable flight path covered.

I do love beating in premium plastic stable and overstable discs because I much prefer premium plastic hand feel, and I personally find I get discs into a desired flight pattern for a long time this way. Nothing beats a perfectly seasoned Wraith or CD2.

On a side note, people throwing DX are just gross.

 

[azplaya25]

Ultimately, we will all tend to go with the disc/shot selection that makes us most comfortable to achieve the desired outcome.

On a side note, people throwing DX are just gross.

Lol those two comments don't jive. I throw almost all dx because I like the grip and hand feel. Rocs and Eagle X's are awesome in DX, and I can control them better than any other mold out there
Also - Philo bags DX Rocs
Barsby bags a DX Eagle and Banshee
Calvin throws a DX Aviarx3


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[armiller]

I'll I have to say is that I played a tourney this weekend and got a good chuckle out of the McBeth wannabees toting around carts and huge Grip bags around a short woods course while I had 3-4 discs in an Innova standard bag.

I'll bite. You're telling me you played a tournament with four discs?