Nikko LoCastro intimidating a PDGA official at European Open '22

[Hampstead]

still going.....

 

[ballgolfconvert]

The golf time rule works because they have the freedom to stop play and finish on Mondays. We don't.

So just because no one is being held up doesn't mean that the event will finish on time and that it's not an issue.

I'm a major "let's not overthink this, what does the PGA do?" person. But in this area, apples and oranges.

What?

The PGA has never finished on a Monday due to player time delays, only due to weather delays. To state otherwise is completely ridiculous. And please show me statistics on how the PDGA time rule has served to increase the pace of play in these major tourneys. Hint: it hasn't had any effect at all.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

And yet you continue to post a variation of the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

And you?

 

[_MTL_]

What?

The PGA has never finished on a Monday due to player time delays, only due to weather delays. To state otherwise is completely ridiculous. And please show me statistics on how the PDGA time rule has served to increase the pace of play in these major tourneys. Hint: it hasn't had any effect at all.

Missing my point.

My point is that the PGA has the luxury to not worry about pace because if there is pending weather, they can just finish monday.

 

[chevis]

... He could also get a job at Best Buy and make just as much over the next 9 months looking at his winnings this year.

but when a customer questions his recommendation of a tv and he gets up in their face then asks them to step away, he is gunna lose that job too.

 

[prokebyt]

I can understand that the tour may need its own disciplinary process. That's about all I've picked up on. I'd like to hear what process PM (or others not named BGC) would consider reasonable. What does "transparency mean?

The two most urgent updates I think are reasonable would be:
1. A restructuring of the disciplinary process to include progressive discipline including fines and tournament suspensions before monthly suspensions.
2. An overhaul of the investigative process mainly surrounding the information gathering process and greater detail in reporting on rulings.

1. Progressive discipline

Only 4 years ago the PDGA President of the Board said this:

Seattle Seahawks running back, Marshawn Lynch once quipped, "I'm just here so I don't get fined." Maybe Lynch would be more at home with a disc than a football because the PDGA doesn't fine players. I suppose we could but with professional disc golfers earning so little relative to other professional athletes, it seems exceedingly punitive. I am not sure how it would work with amateur players. Perhaps we could fine them product. Kicked the basket in disgust? Gimme' your favorite putter. All kidding aside, it would take a formal resolution on behalf of the players for the PDGA to start issuing fines.

And for everyone not named McBeth or Pierce that was probably true. Fines would have still been very punitive to most of the touring class of players in 2018. Just four years later there has been an explosion in the ability for touring pros to support themselves with wages comparable to society at large. You could probably shoot a full season of MTV cribs with how many pros bought houses in the past year. These pros are making future bets on the sport based on all the signals from the market, and the PDGA and DGPT themselves promoting this as a professional sport. They are giving up the opportunity cost of training skills for other professions and taking on huge amounts of debt.

In those four years the punishment deemed 'exceedingly punitive' has flipped. Now months longs suspensions are exceedingly punitive and fines feel appropriately punitive, in my subjective opinion at least. Access to the DGPT And PDGA Majors is everything now and ostracisim from that ecosystem is magnitudes harsher to a professional than an amatuer.

A progressive discipline system of fines -> tournament suspensions -> months long suspensions gives the PDGA and DGPT the appropriate tools for the job. As it stands now their toolkit for administering punishment only includes the most punitive tool. Mandatory rehabilitive processes aimed at correcting behaviour are another tool that can be added in parallel with progessive punishiments.

And a progressive discipline system doesn't necessarily mean you can't get hit with the harshest penalty first. I think Nikko's actions were so vulgar and egregious that a punishment including the most punitive tool is appropriate in his case. But, it should have been coupled with fines as well, say $10,000 + suspensing to 12/31/22 (just as an example).

2. Investigative methods and transparency

To be quite blunt, all accounts of PDGA's investigative and information gathering methods come across as unprofessional to the point of embarrassment. When you are conducting a process that is going to potentialy impact someones source of income, they deserve to be treated like a professional. Step 1 is all communication outside of a hearing needs to be in WRITING. The experience of Bradley Williams and his card mates during the PDGA's investigation in 2016 is a joke:

"There was no transparency in the process, as far as they didn't send me an email, or say 'this is what people are saying, how do you refute that?'" Williams said. "The guy [Leonard] was kind of like, 'I have a good memory, this is what people said, we have a pretty good case against you. What do you have to say?'"

Leonard declined to comment on the situation.

With Williams and Dollar both taking to social media to explain the situation, some have questioned the length of the suspension and how the PDGA came to settle on an 18-month ban. Multiple sources have told Ultiworld Disc Golf that the PDGA was investigating allegations that Williams made gun pointing gestures toward the players on his card, but Williams and Locastro denied that ever took place. Dollar, in a reply on a Facebook thread, also said that did not occur.

"They said that the three guys said they were scared to play with me," Williams said. "But then when I messaged them, Josh Childs said he hadn't talked to [the PDGA] and Nikko said he didn't say that at all."

A common practice in the collective agreements in other professional sports is that all investigative meetings have
1. Advance notice
2. The option of having representation present
3. The investigative meetings do not occur immediately after the incident, players are allowed a cooling off period

The PDGA reported Nikko failed to participate in the investigation, but we have no idea what methods they used to include him. His infraction happened halfway through hole 18. Were they attempting to interview him immediately after the round? If that failed did they invite him to another meeting? Did he ever get advance notice for such a serious meeting with major career implications?

Since part of Nikko's infraction was aired on the live broadcast, and so plainly egregious it can be hard to think he deserves such treatment. But, all players deserve to be treated like humans, even if they have failed to act as such, and the overall process needs to be seen to be fair as the reputations of the investigative bodies and the sport as a whole can be impacted.

After the investigation and ruling, a reporting out process should be added as well. Professional sports have more stakeholders with emotional and monetary interests in the outcomes (fans, players, sponsors). One line at the bottom of a pdf with no explanation on what mitigating factors were considered or what discretion was applied does not cut it.

Disc golf is young compared to most mainstream sports, but very old compared to esports. The League of Legends professional scene has barely been around for a decade and they've already evolved their practices to modern norms. Reading a League ruling versus the PDGA couldn't be anymore different:

https://lolesports.com/article/competitive-ruling-andy-dinh/bltae35536c74102b27

And again, it's totally the PDGA's prerogative to maintain amatuer level governance and regulations over its entire membership body, that is their choice. But, I find it highly hypocrticial that they made the DGPT the official PRO tour of the PDGA and market the PROFSSIONAL scene constantly, while refusing to treat the athletes on that tour like professionals.

 

[chevis]

Players are very clear they don't like making calls. It's a cultural issue - they are worried about tension on a card, tension next week, etc.

this. especially when you have a player like nikko. many of you have said there would have been a totally different outcome if someone came up to you like nikko did to that official. do you think he would have behaved different if it was one of his cardmates making that call?

the mental game is real, so if i make a call, it brings tension into the round & that affects everyone on the card.

 

[Rastnav]

The golf time rule works because they have the freedom to stop play and finish on Mondays. We don't.

So just because no one is being held up doesn't mean that the event will finish on time and that it's not an issue.

I'm a major "let's not overthink this, what does the PGA do?" person. But in this area, apples and oranges.

Eh. If everyone is keeping pace with the card in front of them, and the first card is playing at an appropriate pace, I don't see how you get much faster. If the first card is playing too slow, we still won't get the tournament finished on time.

Sure, the more "elasticity" there is between cards, the more likely we get slower overall play, but if the first card out plays at an appropriate pace, and everyone basically keeps up, every card essentially finishes the round in the same amount of time the first card does. Me throwing 10 seconds faster, only to have our card wait longer on the next tee by that same 10 seconds really does nothing.

Of course there is the argument that the Isaac Robinsons of the world are taking up the slack for the Gannon Buhrs of the world, and that does hold water. But all that has to happen there is for me to stop trying to rush myself to make up for the slow player on the card at which point we have the potential for that player to actually get a violation.

And honestly, I still think the top players in the game making a point of simply reminding everyone that speed of play is an issue of fairness to everyone, making it a public talking point and occasionally pushing their own card, that really could change the overall culture. But maybe the touring pros overall don't actually care about pace of play, IDK.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

One of the headlines on CBS Sports this morning: "Watson discloses length of suspension he would accept."

Here's another angle from the Nikko controversy I keep hearing that's also BS, how other sports baby their tantrum-throwers and it's supposed to make it okay. "In baseball, basketball and football, they get up in officials' faces all the time and act like asses, and heck, even commit crimes, and it's more or less okay there." So? I like to think we're a better sport deserving of higher standards, so forget that logical fallacy too.

 

[jakebake91]

Here's another angle from the Nikko controversy I keep hearing that's also BS, how other sports baby their tantrum-throwers and it's supposed to make it okay. "In baseball, basketball and football, they get up in officials' faces all the time and act like asses, and heck, even commit crimes, and it's more or less okay there." So? I like to think we're a better sport deserving of higher standards, so forget that logical fallacy too.

Not to mention, in football, players get flagged and usually subsequently fined. Baseball managers and players get ejected and usually subsequently fined. Basketball players can be ejected, and then fined. It's not like there are zero repercussions in those sports, either.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Missing my point.

My point is that the PGA has the luxury to not worry about pace because if there is pending weather, they can just finish monday.

They worry about pace very much. They just do it in a more fair and disciplined method and it has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to finish on Mondays. You have seen rounds speed up on the PGA, which is something you can't say about the PDGA.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I like _MTL_'s cost breakdown in getting the number of tourney officials that some seem to demand.

I was pressured to make a tourney a pro-B Tier recently. The conversation went something like this:

"Where am I going to get the $700 added cash the PDGA requires?"

"Uhhhhh...well that's YOUR job cause you're the TD."

"No my dude, I'm already running 2 tourneys, 2 leagues and managing a DG club in 2022. I think someone else can go beg for cash. You want that cashola you get it."

I cannot even imagine the nightmare it would be to drum up the 1.1 Million MTL had. Yikes. Maybe some of these folks who demand this sort of thing start beating the bushes for that colossal amount of denero. Get a little dose of the real world...

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Not to mention, in football, players get flagged and usually subsequently fined. Baseball managers and players get ejected and usually subsequently fined. Basketball players can be ejected, and then fined. It's not like there are zero repercussions in those sports, either.

The argument I believe I was seeing was how Nikko's punishment doesn't fit the crime when a similar emotional episode on a major sports field/court would incur a much lesser consequence. Even if true, it doesn't make it right for our sport.

(Often the fines they incur are a joke to the totality of their wealth.)

I truly don't give a rat's ass how it works in baseball and football. We are better than them. Give us another century to catch up with the amount of time they've been entrenched in our culture and I wouldn't be surprised (if by some miracle I'd live to be 149) if we're a "major" sport. We check all the boxes. So I believe we should hold ourselves to higher standards.

I don't think any Disc Golfer should ever, ever act toward an official (or anybody, period) like Nikko, and he should be thankful his punishment is as lenient as it is. I also don't think he's playing with a full deck, so I'll be surprised if he learns anything from this. "B..b..but a batter would be ejected from one of the 162 games they play, maybe lose a tiny fraction of their paycheck, and that's it," and, "I put my heart and soul into this game [so it's okay if I act like a prick on the course]." There's yet another rationalization I see from him that's total crap. Nikko needs to grow up, period.

 

[txmxer]

Seems reasonable that the PDGA/DGPT need to work on the disciplinary process. More formal. More documentation. More structure.

It's an evolving sport.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I cannot even imagine the nightmare it would be to drum up the 1.1 Million MTL had. Yikes. Maybe some of these folks who demand this sort of thing start beating the bushes for that colossal amount of denero. Get a little dose of the real world...

The underlined just might be (damned near literally), the best idea yet.

Put together a solid campaign to bring to to the legalized marijuana industry, targetted at the local kevel (grass roots, if you will ), to solicit their subsidizing/sponsorship of said paid officials for the betterment of our game.

The local dispensaries in my area seem to have a never ending flow of customers, rivaled only by grocery stores. Even in this economic funk, they have to be way in the black. Hell, wouldn't surprise me if the crap economy has helped boost sales.

Surely, they have to be aware of the huge overlap between the DG demographics and their customer base.

 

[txmxer]

That is the essence of entertainment sports. Find your sugar daddy and let the good times roll.

Extreme sports, racing sports, etc., petty much are dominated by the energy drink business. Did see some effort by the CBD sellers to advertise there—but they jumped on the USADA band wagon. Obviously no legal THC marketing money which probably severely limits the CBD market as well.

DG has not slipped in to the international sports competition model that is heavily associated with WADA/USADA.

I imagine the Uli commercial where he's sitting on the cart and looks up. As he looks up, smoke starts to drift out of his mouth. Then he starts hacking and coughing, laughing. Looks at the bud in his hand and says, " that's good sh!t man! I need some GG Jerky".

 

[txmxer]

didn't see this posted here.

 

[DeanMoriarty]

Anyone else got any new and interesting takes on this definitely not worn out subject?

He apologized and says he's going to move forward. Do people who still care about this just want to see him quit for good or is there even a slight chance he could redeem himself someday?

 

[ru4por]

Anyone else got any new and interesting takes on this definitely not worn out subject?

He apologized and says he's going to move forward. Do people who still care about this just want to see him quit for good or is there even a slight chance he could redeem himself someday?

Everybody can redeem themselves. I don't know the guy, so I don't have feeling about him personally. The post below really shows that he still does not get it. Mistakes are learning opportunities in life, I still fear he is going to miss the the lesson.

 

[DeanMoriarty]

Everybody can redeem themselves. I don't know the guy, so I don't have feeling about him personally. The post below really shows that he still does not get it. Mistakes are learning opportunities in life, I still fear he is going to miss the the lesson.

Yea honestly, I realized basically the day after it happened how little I actually care but it does seem like he's the type of person to change for a month or two tops then revert back to the same crappy behavior.

One thing I want to point out is perhaps the reason why he's never made a serious effort to change is because his freakouts didn't happen on such a global level and from what I can tell, this is the most serious one he's had so far.

Maybe it'll take him realizing what a huge jackass he made himself look like on a national level to inspire some real change. That and I really hope he's been reading the comments on YouTube/Instagram because that right there should be motivation enough to want to change his negative image.