Nikko LoCastro intimidating a PDGA official at European Open '22

[Streets]

hot air

 

[foxdawg10]

if they were throwing it off for everyone wouldn't they be out of position on the course?

Nope ( I wanted to type No, but minimum post is 4 characters)

 

[ballgolfconvert]

I'll bet if Nikko gets suspended for 2 years, players will be less likely to try and physically intimidate an official.

How are you so certain that Nikko was unaware the official was there timing him?

the official said that he went with the prior players warning and didn't warn again. I am paraphrasing but that's what i took out of the official's statement.

 

[araytx]

The remote viewer is not a consideration in slow play rules, period.

Disagree. The DGPT and DGN are "in bed together." Just like the SEC & ACC are with ESPN. The network DOES have something to say about how the product is presented visually. That thing about "that's how the money flows in ..."

DGPT should be figuring out how to catch the slow players later in their turn instead of trying to change how players paying for a paycheck play their games. The only valid reason for any slow play rules is that a group is out of position on the course. if they are not out of position then who cares? i could care less if the video producers have a bit of down time while a player is giving it their all.

Also exceeding the time limit is not a violation in itself. It only becomes a violation after a specific series of events. Proper specific warning, position of group, difficulty level of a shot, outside distractions in play, order of play, all determine how fast a shot should be played. They did a study on the PGA Tour and the first player to tee off and the first player to hit an approach, all violated the time rule the majority of the time during the study. It took on average 15-20 seconds more for those shots to be hit, by fast and slow players alike. Most everyone here thinks this a vanilla and chocolate thing, "he was too slow so it is a penalty'. There are a whole host of other issues also in play other than just time. The ignorance towards these issues may have gone a long way towards having the situation develop like it did.

Several places herein your "should" reference is simply your own opinion, which is clearly not a majority opinion. What "you" care about and what the people putting on the product care about might be two different things.

What kind of sheltered world do you live in where occasionally throwing a disc golf bag = having demons? You should see me when I stub my toe, you would recommend I seek therapy!

I have had more threatening encounters with business professionals in expensive suits negotiating business deals compared to Nikko stepping on that TD. Nikko was an idiot for doing what he did, but at the same time we have some extremely soft people in this thread.

How may of those "suits" were volunteering their time (aka, working for free) for hours a day doing that same thing over and over -- just simply to try and make an event better, while you were having that threatening encounter with them?

What do you have a problem with? That the DGTP should figure out on their own how to avoid the dead time?

Or is it

That there is a specific chain of events before taking too much time results in a penalty? If that wasn't the case then every one of us are cheaters, because we all take long than prescribed on occasion and always without a penalty.

An excessive time violation, by PDGA definition does include several parameters/events, not just the time alone. We all know that, so let's not pretend that everyone on the thread thinks it is time alone in and of itself. When we say Nikko committed an excessive time violation we are saying that ALL of those events/parameters occurred.

And there's another "should".

I have never seen a penalty (foul) called without a player getting very upset. if it was obvious to the player they called it on themselves. I also think Nikko had the right to be upset because the official was not professional pre-call by informing Nikko that he was actually on the clock. Before next year's events the rule will call for player notification. Why expect players to act professional when the officials go into an unprofessional 'prey" mode with them singled out. Just have the courtesy to inform the player. I think that is not asking too much.

You really believe that was happening? That Nikko was singled out and hadn't been spoken to about his play already? That the official was working in "speed trap mode" waiting for the driver to go to 56 mph on his radar, oops, I mean Nikko to go to 31 seconds just so he could "prey" on poor Nikko? This is what you really believe, eh?

I am not defending Nikko and I am not criticizing the tour official for doing his job.
Nikko's behavior was inexcusable and the tour official acted professionally.

Having said that…
I hope and recommend that the PDGA and DGPT investigate not only Nikko's mis-behavior, but also what could possibly be done in the future to avoid a repeat (from the next hothead with a touring card).
When a problem occurs, a good troubleshooter/engineer looks at the mechanism of the failure and how to fix that, but also looks to prevent the next occurrence.
In other words, investigate the the failure, the consequences and the mechanism of failure with an eye to prevention.
Maybe the answer ends up being that all was done that could be done, but they need to look at this as a way to learn from the past to see if it could be prevented from happening again.

Nobody wins from things like this.

Having now read https://www.pdga.com/files/pdga_disciplinary_process_final_01012020.pdf, the PDGA disciplinary rules, I don't see how it's not at least a Class C violation, warranting a suspension. A lengthy probation may have gotten a better response from Nikko, but looking at their own rules, I don't see how it is NOT gong to be a suspension of some length. Not what I would have done if there were no rule there -- but there is a rule there.

Kicking a bag and intimidating an official are totally different, though I am aware of his history. Many pages on this forum have been devoted to his attitude and pace of play. The PDGA could have done things in the past if it was overly concerned. I think the PDGA's response to this event will be very interesting. As far as I know, he has never been formally disciplined for any outburst in the past (I could be wrong). Again, this turns into what message does the PDGA want to send.

I do think 2 years is rough, that could essentially be career ending. With no sponsorship opportunities, he could be close to that already, I don't think prize money for a 1020-1030 rated player will earn anyone a living.

A rest of the season suspension would be fair, IMHO. Whatever the punishment, it is clear he brought it on himself. Hope he can learn from this and get his life in order.

The PDGA DID do something about the excessive time rule because they were concerned. Last year, they eliminated the distractions portion of the rule and made it where tournament officials could enforce the rule even if players wouldn't. This situation is one of many results of that. I've now counted close to ten times I've heard on coverage of the the tournament officials calling a player for excessive time this year.

Question for the current former PDGA staff that are on DGCR... Can he be suspended for individual events?

Personally, i think a 2yr suspension would be a bit much considering he didn't physically assault the official. So i am wondering, since this was a PDGA Major, if maybe they could suspend him from just PDGA Majors for a year or two? Or if that isn't enough, maybe suspend him for the rest of this year and then also next year's majors?

...but if he completes some kind of anger management type of program he would be allowed to compete at normal events and on tour again next season?...

https://www.pdga.com/files/pdga_disciplinary_process_final_01012020.pdf
IF deemed a Class A, B, or C violation, he certainly can.

How about:

1) We clock every player, every throw.

2) Players accumulate unused time for shots made in less than 30 sec.

3) Players with accumulated time can sell blocks of time to other players ... like carbon credits.

Isaac Robinson plays pretty quickly, doesn't he?
This could be a nifty revenue stream for him.

Sarcasm??? Not even a chance of that.

Yes they need to be notified. But again conditions should be met. If the group as a whole is not slow there should not be enforcement. If the group is out of position, then enforcement should be able to come until the group has regained position. This is fairness. Unfairness is to keep it open for an entire round. where you warn a player on Hole 1 and then call a bad time on hole 18.

The majority clearly disagree on those with you.

The timing rule requires a warning. First violation is not penalized. Steve should have warned himself rather than calling a penalty on himself. it's not like i believe this really happened either.

Here is a prime example BGC. Steve DID give himself a warning. He wrote that plain as day. But apparently, you are (as you claim myself and others to be) only hearing what you want to hear.

See:

You may not be aware of this, but we are not talking about golf.

In disc golf:



There is no penalty for picking up your marker too soon. Just put it back.



Not that it matters, but I have called time violations. Usually one per new group I play with. The old guy who didn't scout the course and just can't make a tee throw without eyeballing the basket gets a warning and then for the rest of the round they don't walk up the fairway to plan their shot when they are next to throw. And everyone has the pressure of whether to call them for it lifted.

The last excessive time call I made was on myself. We were waiting for the group ahead to clear the fairway, got to talking, then noticed it had been clear for a while, and I had forgotten I was first on the box. I gave myself an excessive time warning.

In general, it is really, really easy to throw within 30 seconds. And 30 seconds feels like an eternity. Those delays you think should have been a violation usually time out to about 28 seconds. The number of calls made is already very close to the number that would be made if every player had a personal timer with a stop watch.

 

[SaROCaM]

If they picked up their lie they get a penalty anyways. You let them tee off it par+.

Steve already pointed out that the marker can be replaced. If they tee off on the next hole without having finished the previous one, wouldn't the applicable penalty be outlined below instead of "par+" as you stated?

811.F.3
The player has finished the round or thrown on a hole without having completed a previous hole. The score for the misplayed hole is the number of throws made, plus one for completing the hole, plus two penalty throws for the misplay.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Are you saying that as long as you aren't causing a backup, you should be entitled to take as much time as you wish for each throw? If so, then the last card to tee (in an event with tee times) wouldn't have to deal with the 30 second rule, they would be allowed unlimited time for each throw using your rules. Is that fair?

They still have to maintain the cards place on the course. But yes, there shouldn't be a time limit.

That said if the other players feel that it is a problem they are always free to put him on the clock. But again if they give the warning, they should be responsible for the timing. It shouldn't be handed off to someone else without the player being notified of it.

How would all you react if some total stranger comes up to you and says they are penalizing you? Bottom line it was handled poorly and the way it was handled screams out that Nikko was targeted. Fix the rule to prevent this from happening again.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Steve already pointed out that the marker can be replaced. If they tee off on the next hole without having finished the previous one, wouldn't the applicable penalty be outlined below instead of "par+" as you stated?

811.F.3
The player has finished the round or thrown on a hole without having completed a previous hole. The score for the misplayed hole is the number of throws made, plus one for completing the hole, plus two penalty throws for the misplay.

If you pick up your marker and leave the hole, then return to complete before teeing off next hole, it is one penalty stroke. If you fail to hole out before teeing off then it basically adds 3 strokes to your score 1 for throw in + 2 penalty stroke. If you accidentally move your marker disc there is no penalty, just move it back.

 

[joshmo65]

So, if a player is lining up a putt and gets into their stance, am I loudly allowed to announce that they are now on the clock without a courtesy warning for distracting them? opcorn:

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Steve already pointed out that the marker can be replaced. If they tee off on the next hole without having finished the previous one, wouldn't the applicable penalty be outlined below instead of "par+" as you stated?

811.F.3
The player has finished the round or thrown on a hole without having completed a previous hole. The score for the misplayed hole is the number of throws made, plus one for completing the hole, plus two penalty throws for the misplay.

If you pick up your marker and leave the hole, then return to complete before teeing off next hole, it is one penalty stroke. If you fail to hole out before teeing off then it basically adds 3 strokes to your score 1 for throw in +2 penalty stroke. If you accidentally move your marker disc there is no penalty, just move it back.

 

[ohtobediscing]

Obviously you don't play ball golf either, because

A. there very definitely are time limit penalties in ball golf, independent of the card's position on the course, and
B. there have been several instances in the last few years where TV VIEWERS have called bg tourney officials to report violations(other than time) and penalties WERE handed down to the guilty players.

I realize you want to rewrite the PDGA rulebook in your image and likeness, but it isn't going to happen.

 

[SaROCaM]

If you pick up your marker and leave the hole, then return to complete before teeing off next hole, it is one penalty stroke. If you fail to hole out before teeing off then it basically adds 3 strokes to your score 1 for throw in + 2 penalty stroke. If you accidentally move your marker disc there is no penalty, just move it back.

What did you mean by this:

You let them tee off it par+.

 

[eegor]

I'm reading this... incredulous. There are rules. Everyone plays by the rules, or they receive a penalty. "Position" doesn't matter. Whether you root for the player or not... doesn't matter. Enforce the rules, and the game is more fun for the vast majority of the players. Only those that think rules don't apply to them, have a problem with this concept.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

So, if a player is lining up a putt and gets into their stance, am I loudly allowed to announce that they are now on the clock without a courtesy warning for distracting them? opcorn:

Seriously?

 

[RowingBoats]

They still have to maintain the cards place on the course. But yes, there shouldn't be a time limit.

That said if the other players feel that it is a problem they are always free to put him on the clock. But again if they give the warning, they should be responsible for the timing. It shouldn't be handed off to someone else without the player being notified of it.

How would all you react if some total stranger comes up to you and says they are penalizing you? Bottom line it was handled poorly and the way it was handled screams out that Nikko was targeted. Fix the rule to prevent this from happening again.

You just have the worst takes, on literally everything lol.

There is nothing broken about the rule. If a player is warned in the round, the next violation can be timed and penalized. There is no justification for requiring the warning to come from the person who calls the next violation.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

I'm reading this... incredulous. There are rules. Everyone plays by the rules, or they receive a penalty. "Position" doesn't matter. Whether you root for the player or not... doesn't matter. Enforce the rules, and the game is more fun for the vast majority of the players. Only those that think rules don't apply to them, have a problem with this concept.

But that is not true. 99.9% of time violations never get called, even though they are still time violations. So obviously the rules do not apply equally to everyone. Was Nikko the only slow player at the tournament? Of course not. Was he the only one to take more than 30 seconds to make a throw? Of course not. Was he the only player to be called for a penalty? Yes.

 

[krupicka]

If you pick up your marker and leave the hole, then return to complete before teeing off next hole, it is one penalty stroke. If you fail to hole out before teeing off then it basically adds 3 strokes to your score 1 for throw in +2 penalty stroke. If you accidentally move your marker disc there is no penalty, just move it back.

Your first sentence is false regardless of how many times you copy / paste it.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

You just have the worst takes, on literally everything lol.

There is nothing broken about the rule. If a player is warned in the round, the next violation can be timed and penalized. There is no justification for requiring the warning to come from the person who calls the next violation.

I agree, but all that shows is that the rule needs quite a bit of attention by the rules committee. All this talk about courtesy etc and then someone shows up the scene unannounced to call a penalty and throws all this courtesy stuff away? It makes no sense to me and sets the field up for uneven enforcement of the rules. just be better already.

 

[RowingBoats]

But that is not true. 99.9% of time violations never get called, even though they are still time violations. So obviously the rules do not apply equally to everyone. Was Nikko the only slow player at the tournament? Of course not. Was he the only one to take more than 30 seconds to make a throw? Of course not. Was he the only player to be called for a penalty? Yes.

Was he also the only player to be warned first, then called on a penalty? Because...that's the actual rule. Who else had a warning, and subsequent time violation that was not penalized?

You are the one claiming the rule wasn't applied evenly, you have to show where that happened.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

To those typing the "other sports do it" responses......

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/soccer-player-dies-massive-brawl-104609826.html

 

[eegor]

But that is not true. 99.9% of time violations never get called, even though they are still time violations. So obviously the rules do not apply equally to everyone. Was Nikko the only slow player at the tournament? Of course not. Was he the only one to take more than 30 seconds to make a throw? Of course not. Was he the only player to be called for a penalty? Yes.

A rule was broken. A penalty was called. What is the problem?