PDGA survey

[DavidSauls]

Only if their player rating is higher than whoever they are giving their opinion to.

We must never violate the most fundamental tenet of disc golf.

Another attempt to silence me.

 

[aphilso1]

That isn't what I said.

I said that saying "as father with daughters" or "as a man with a wife" as justification for one's opinion is problematic. You're free to have your opinion. But, in my opinion, trying to white knight that opinion by putting the women in your life in front you is a poor attempt at lending that opinion legitimacy.

That is exactly what you said. I literally quoted you. You said "If you aren't prepared to be told your opinion doesn't matter, don't voice it." You are willing to tell an entire group of people that their opinion doesn't matter, purely based on biological characteristics that they can't change. So thank you, for outing yourself as a bigot.

 

[DavidSauls]

A parent with a special-needs child, opining on how the school system handles such children, isn't using that child as a shield for his opinions on school policy. A person whose spouse has cancer, isn't using him as a shield for opining about the health care system. People can actually have opinions based on or influenced by what happens to people they love.

Counter the opinions themselves. Refute the statements of fact on which they are based. Don't just dismiss them out of hand. Because, you know, someone will come along and dismiss the arguments for inclusion made by transgender women because they're biased, or have a self-interest.

 

[medic5888]

That's a Catch-22, isn't it? If they speak up as their own opinion, they're told it doesn't matter because it doesn't affect them. If they speak up on behalf of women they know, they're told it doesn't matter, because they're not speaking for themselves.

This 100%. David hit the nail on the head.

My wife god forbid I speak on her after the conversation we had last night reading this thread together. My wife. Pro choice, Atheist, Strong feminist. " men transitioning into female should not be playing in a female only field ". However she does support the right for gender choice.

Here's my 2 cents. A lot of people don't understand. A lot of men don't understand. I say men bc its my choice to say it that way. I am very pro choice, pro gender, pro love. Bc I don't understand and mislabeled something in someone else opinion does not mean I am being prejudiced in any form. This is no different than the people you fight. The GOP, the fundamental christians/ religious groups forcing their opinion down everyones throats. I accept everyone for who they are.

1. If someone doesn't like you move on who cares if some one off person feels a certain way. If they are not harming you in any way why tf does it matter.

2. I am of Native American decent. I, nor my family gives a crap if you call us Indians, American Indians, native Americans, or indigenous people.

3. Educate not berate people.

4. White men are the evil... I am sick of being lumped into this category. Bc I automatically get assumed im some bible beating, trump supporting, homosexual hating person. Which is not me.

5. See anything I post on my IG the only social media I have. Its supporting pro choice, womens rights, equality.

6. People are going to have different opinions. Being a dick is not going to change their views. Education will. Stop assuming everyones opinions. If someone doesn't agree with me in life oh well, happens all the time.

7. David this was not directed at you in any way except saying you were saying what I was thinking. This is just a snowball of a lot of opinions I have.

 

[denny ritner]

She's got all of the justifications to say what she says on the topic. As opposed to cisgender men.
I might not necessarily like what she says, or how she says it.
But she's absolutely got the right to do so, and to be heard, because she is at the very least potentially harmed in this.
Cisgender men are not harmed in this.

This is 100% bull****. Our entire sport is being harmed by the PDGA board's mishandling of this issue (and several others). The players (the vast majority being cisgender men) fund the organization and are being taken for granted.

When will you be releasing the entire, raw survey data?

 

[ChrisWoj]

The players (the vast majority being cisgender men) fund the organization and are being taken for granted.

We really aren't.

 

[dmoore1998]

When will you be releasing the entire, raw survey data?

Never, never ever, never ever ever? never

just a guess

 

[aphilso1]

In the grand scheme of things, PDGA divisions don't matter. It's not something life or death like cancer. But it is reasonable to that a parent hurts when their child hurts, or a spouse hurts when their husband/wife hurts.

Trivializing the experiences of those parents and spouses shows a complete lack of empathy.
Trivializing their opinions because they disagree with you shows intellectual laziness.
Trivializing their opinions because they all fall into one biological group (yes, even cis-gendered males) shows bigotry.

If you believe someone's opinion doesn't matter based on how they were born, then you need to learn to be a better human.

 

[dmoore1998]

4. White men are the evil... I am sick of being lumped into this category. Bc I automatically get assumed im some bible beating, trump supporting, homosexual hating person. Which is not me.

White men aren't evil...also, the shirt that literally came in my mail yesterday:

 

[dmoore1998]

In the grand scheme of things, PDGA divisions don't matter. It's not something life or death like cancer. But it is reasonable to that a parent hurts when their child hurts, or a spouse hurts when their husband/wife hurts.

Trivializing the experiences of those parents and spouses shows a complete lack of empathy.
Trivializing their opinions because they disagree with you shows intellectual laziness.
Trivializing their opinions because they all fall into one biological group (yes, even cis-gendered males) shows bigotry.

If you believe someone's opinion doesn't matter based on how they were born, then you need to learn to be a better human.

There's a world of difference between "don't matter" and "not life or death" though. Some of this is how people make money as a career. So yeah, it doesn't matter if people lose their jobs because it's not life or death...but also it kind of matters because a lot more things actually matter than just living and dying.

 

[DavidSauls]

This is 100% bull****. Our entire sport is being harmed by the PDGA board's mishandling of this issue (and several others). The players (the vast majority being cisgender men) fund the organization and are being taken for granted.

When will you be releasing the entire, raw survey data?

The PDGA doesn't ask the membership, and they get slammed.

Then they do ask the membership, and they get slammed.

The survey -- remember the survey? It's in the thread title -- may be flawed, but it's more input than a handful of people who bother to contact the board directly, and a lot more input than people whining in forums and on social media.

 

[dmoore1998]

The PDGA doesn't ask the membership, and they get slammed.

Then they do ask the membership, and they get slammed.

The survey -- remember the survey? It's in the thread title -- may be flawed, but it's more input than a handful of people who bother to contact the board directly, and a lot more input than people whining in forums and on social media.

IMO, this is exactly why it's being massively mishandled. There appears to be no actual strategy other than "who is loudest, what can we put out in a poorly constructed way to maybe quiet them?".

And the mishandling is of the issue, not necessarily just of the survey. The emails from Elaine King...the survey...the idea of who sent out the survey...the complete lack of transparency as to what actual science the PDGA has, or is looking for, or has already decided.

It seems sort of inconceivable to me to think that anyone would say the PDGA hasn't mishandled this issue terribly. They can still end up in the right place...but the actual handling of it from start to finish (well not finish, since it isn't finished yet) seems dreadful.

 

[Three Putt]

If the PDGA were to enact a policy barring trans women from playing in female divisions as best I can tell (from discussion with a lawyer friend) it would be illegal in a number of states as well as a number of countries outside the US. Does this matter to anyone at all?

I'm just going to re-post this over and over.

 

[denny ritner]

The survey -- remember the survey? It's in the thread title -- may be flawed, but it's more input than a handful of people who bother to contact the board directly, and a lot more input than people whining in forums and on social media.

If they release the raw data on the relevant questions AND they incorporate those opinions into their process on this issue and others, then we will have been heard.

There's whining and then there's voting with our dollars. Players do not NEED the PDGA, but the PDGA needs dollars.

 

[DavidSauls]

If they release the raw data on the relevant questions AND they incorporate those opinions into their process on this issue and others, then we will have been heard.

Nonsense. We'll be heard if they see and consider the results, in light of other factors. It's a survey, not a referendum.

 

[Streets]

This is 100% bull****. Our entire sport is being harmed by the PDGA board's mishandling of this issue (and several others). The players (the vast majority being cisgender men) fund the organization and are being taken for granted.

When will you be releasing the entire, raw survey data?

 

[biscoe]

We really aren't.

Agreed. The most recent election was imo a referendum on the issue and the exclusionary candidates did not fair well. Evidently there are other Board members who share their opinions however and have simply not seen fit to publicly express them. Those Board members do not seem to be interested in legislating in such a manner as to follow the beliefs of the majority of their constituents.

 

[Arisugawa]

That is exactly what you said. I literally quoted you. You said "If you aren't prepared to be told your opinion doesn't matter, don't voice it." You are willing to tell an entire group of people that their opinion doesn't matter, purely based on biological characteristics that they can't change. So thank you, for outing yourself as a bigot.

I said "If you aren't prepared to be told your opinion doesn't matter, don't voice it."

Which means have the courage of your convictions. Understand that what you say may not be received well. Accept that others will not agree with you, and may not feel you have a place in the discussion.

You can twist those words into "you have a winky, therefore shut up," but that is not what I said.

 

[jenb]

If the PDGA were to enact a policy barring trans women from playing in female divisions as best I can tell (from discussion with a lawyer friend) it would be illegal in a number of states as well as a number of countries outside the US. Does this matter to anyone at all?

I doubt it. Else the WPGA wouldn't have been getting away with it for years now. And the NFL would be bankrupted by ADA lawsuits. Players are not PDGA employees. And there are exceptions for the sports and entertainment industries. A casting director isn't required to audition black women for the role of George Washington.

 

[gingerandhoney]

Wow! Spectators matter. Without spectators we would have little money for touring FPO players to earn. This is a spectator sport.

The majority of FPO spectators are cisgender men. Can you please explain again why they're not harmed in this?

And, please don't be so dismissive of this point. Can you explain it without the snarky "Back to the general discussion again".

Harm, in this context, and als described as such in the IOC Framework document as well pertains directly to the cisgender women in the competitions in gender-based divisions in the sport said sports association (pdga in our case) governs.