PDGA Website Scoring no longer requires players to sign their scorecard

[GoobyPls]

We had our first local rated tournament of the year yesterday, and the new PDGA scoring was a disaster. Previous years required each player to enter either their name or PDGA number to sign off on their scorecard, thereby putting onus on the player to make sure their own score was correct. But at yesterday's tournament, there were multiple scoring errors that weren't caught until too late because the scorekeeper now just clicks a single button to sign off on the entire card, officially submitting it for all players even if they didn't get to review it.

This ended up being a huge problem yesterday when multiple players ended up getting two stroke penalties for scoring errors when they didn't even get a chance to review our sign off on their own cards. It actually cost one younger player their first albatross (ace on a par 4), because the scorekeeper was expecting the hole to be a par 3 and just pressed the minus sign twice, accidentally marking it as a 2 instead of a 1 (which then got changed to a 3 as a result of the penalty).

Does anyone know what the reasoning was for this change this year?

 

[ReinZ_96]

Tournament I played last weekend I still had to confirm that everything was correct before finalizing, they just removed the individual player sign offs. But, this is why you always keep a backup score (paper, or udisc) and cross check them before submitting, just like when everything was still paper only. Always have two scoring methods, even if you just do it for yourself to make sure the scorekeeper isn't being skeevy.

 

[araytx]

We had our first local rated tournament of the year yesterday, and the new PDGA scoring was a disaster. Previous years required each player to enter either their name or PDGA number to sign off on their scorecard, thereby putting onus on the player to make sure their own score was correct. But at yesterday's tournament, there were multiple scoring errors that weren't caught until too late because the scorekeeper now just clicks a single button to sign off on the entire card, officially submitting it for all players even if they didn't get to review it.

This ended up being a huge problem yesterday when multiple players ended up getting two stroke penalties for scoring errors when they didn't even get a chance to review our sign off on their own cards. It actually cost one younger player their first albatross (ace on a par 4), because the scorekeeper was expecting the hole to be a par 3 and just pressed the minus sign twice, accidentally marking it as a 2 instead of a 1 (which then got changed to a 3 as a result of the penalty).

Does anyone know what the reasoning was for this change this year?

It would be rare for someone on DGCR, other than those in the PDGA offices or elected roles to know. Go to this page https://www.pdga.com/contact , and click on the appropriate contact and they'll tell you.

 

[gooberau]

I've played a couple of tournaments here in Australia using PDGA this year and we have two people both entering the scores via PDGA on their own devices. It now supports this. It immediately reports a scoring conflict and it's up to the card to sort it out. It seems to work very well.

I always use UDISC for my own round just to double check after the final hole.

 

[glassila]

Tournament I played last weekend I still had to confirm that everything was correct before finalizing, they just removed the individual player sign offs. But, this is why you always keep a backup score (paper, or udisc) and cross check them before submitting, just like when everything was still paper only. Always have two scoring methods, even if you just do it for yourself to make sure the scorekeeper isn't being skeevy.

The OP said that the scorekeeper submitted the scores without allowing anyone to review it and the players were left to deal with the penalties from wrong scores. So even if you kept your own score it didn't matter.

Something is definitely wrong there.

 

[ru4por]

I would have made a quick trip to the TD, after the round, explaining the scores were entered by the scorekeeper, without my review. I think if there was a PDGA scoring difficulty for the entire player population, a question arises to whether penalties apply. Without being diligent enough to actually look up the rule, I think they afford me, as a player, the opportunity to review the card, before submission.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Disc golfers are generally very lax when it comes to scoring. Every tourney card kept by my card mates always has mistakes. It really is inexcusable and a sign of pure laziness. Every player at the least should at least be jotting down their own score. If you don't like keeping score, don't play tourneys, as that is an important element in competing. Too many players constantly want to dish that responsibility.

Also, if the scorekeeper does not confirm scores before hitting those checkboxes, they should suffer penalties as well.

 

[runningDoc]

the best part about disc golf is disc golfers.

the worst part about disc golf…. is disc golfers.

 

[txmxer]

the best part about disc golf is disc golfers.

the worst part about disc golf…. is disc golfers.

This a sports axiom.

 

[coupe]

The OP said that the scorekeeper submitted the scores without allowing anyone to review it and the players were left to deal with the penalties from wrong scores. So even if you kept your own score it didn't matter.

At the Forest Hills Open the TD required two players on each card keep score to avoid just this scenario. (Where did the scorekeeper finish? Maybe the new pencil whipping?)

As gooberau noted, the PDGA livescoring app supports two scorekeepers and flags scoring discrepancies in realtime so they can be corrected on the spot. Also, the scorecard can't be finalized until the individual hole scores agree and the round totals are correct.

It actually cost one younger player their first albatross (ace on a par 4), because the scorekeeper was expecting the hole to be a par 3 and just pressed the minus sign twice, accidentally marking it as a 2 instead of a 1 (which then got changed to a 3 as a result of the penalty).

Did the TD play, and did he have a share of the ace pot?

The two stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard gets added to the correct TOTAL score, not to a hole score:

G. After the scorecard has been submitted, the total score as recorded is final, except for the following circumstances:

1. Penalty throws may be added or removed up by the Director up until the Director declares the tournament over, or all awards have been distributed.

2. If the total score or any hole score is incorrect, improperly recorded, or missing, [/b]two penalty throws are added to the correct total score.[/B] Those penalty throws are not added when the score has been adjusted for other violations determined after the player had submitted an otherwise correct scorecard.

Score on the hole should have been 1. If the TD added the penalties to the hole score, he screwed up.

Sounds like the TD of the event in the OP needs to up his game.

 

[TurnedOver]

... and just pressed the minus sign twice, accidentally marking it as a 2 instead of a 1 (which then got changed to a 3 as a result of the penalty). ...

I haven't used the PDGA scoring app. Does it really work this way?

U-Disc users would press the plus sign once for one stroke. We'd have less user errors this way.

 

[biscoe]

No backup scoring?

Competition Manual 1.05.G. - "The Tournament Director must provide two scorecards to each group, to be kept independently of one another. These scorecards may be of the same medium or of different media. The two scorecards must be reconciled by the group and submitted by whichever method the Tournament Director has designated as the official scoring method for the tournament."

2 players using PDGA Live concurrently is the best option- any discrepancies are immediately highlighted to be dealt with.

 

[krupicka]

I believe the confirmation was removed when every player on the card is able to keep score with the PDGA digital scorecard simultaneously. That really now is the best way to go: every player on a card should keep score for the entire card in the PDGA digital scorecard.

 

[ru4por]

I believe the confirmation was removed when every player on the card is able to keep score with the PDGA digital scorecard simultaneously. That really now is the best way to go: every player on a card should keep score for the entire card in the PDGA digital scorecard.

I don't care for this. FIRST...I don't own a cell phone. I know we are a dying breed, but I am not alone. SECOND....cell coverage does not always provide for coverage for all carriers.

A backup should be encouraged by the TD and paper cards made available.

I get that four phones is optimal, but not always pragmatic. It just should not be an assumption, IMO.

 

[GoobyPls]

At the Forest Hills Open the TD required two players on each card keep score to avoid just this scenario. (Where did the scorekeeper finish? Maybe the new pencil whipping?)

As gooberau noted, the PDGA livescoring app supports two scorekeepers and flags scoring discrepancies in realtime so they can be corrected on the spot. Also, the scorecard can't be finalized until the individual hole scores agree and the round totals are correct.



Did the TD play, and did he have a share of the ace pot?

The two stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard gets added to the correct TOTAL score, not to a hole score:



Score on the hole should have been 1. If the TD added the penalties to the hole score, he screwed up.

Sounds like the TD of the event in the OP needs to up his game.

Not sure where the scorekeeper finished, I wasn't at this event. TD did not play, and is a very well-respected member of the local DG community who was put in a really bad spot.

Seems like keeping two digital scorecards is the way to go.

 

[BillFleming]

I believe the confirmation was removed when every player on the card is able to keep score with the PDGA digital scorecard simultaneously. That really now is the best way to go: every player on a card should keep score for the entire card in the PDGA digital scorecard.

I was recently in a tournament where three of us tried to keep score on PDGA Live and couldn't. It only allowed two of us to do it. Another time, there were two scorekeepers on PDGA Live and one phone died, I tried to "take over" scoring and it wouldn't allow me. Luckily one of us had a blank scorecard and we were able to use that as the second option.

Both of those situations happened this year.

 

[Dcinmd]

If 4 players wanted to sign off on their scores 4 players should have kept score on the PDGA live. That is why they did away with the sign off because anyone on the card can keep the official score for the round.

And the round does not become official till all active scorekeeper of the card submit their scores, a big pain if someone forget to submits or stop keeping track midway thru the round because their phone is about to die.

At a minimum there should be 2 per card on live PDGA, and the scored should always be reviewed after the round.

And unfortunately if you playing with someone new you have no idea how good of a score keep they are.

 

[BillFleming]

On the main issue.....signing off on the score card. My question is: really, what has changed?

When it was only paper score cards, there was no requirement for players to sign off on it. There was no requirement for the score keeper to show it to the other players. The score keeper SHOULD have asked the players to confirm their scores, but they could just turn in the paper score card without the rest of the card checking it. There wasn't any requirement for the TD to ask every player if they checked and confirmed their score.

It works the same way with the digital score card....no need to have everyone check and confirm their score. The score keeper(s) SHOULD ask everyone to check/confirm their score before it is submitted, but there's no requirement for that.

There USED to be a requirement for each player to confirm their score, but that was due to the way the app was set up and that caused issues of its own. What if a player left before confirming their digital score? The score couldn't be submitted unless the other players entered the name or PDGA number of the person who left....and they could argue they didn't confirm their score.

And.....the most important thing is Rule 808 Scoring....nowhere does it say that each player has to confirm their score before it is submitted.

 

[ToddL]

FYI, this is the submission process at the end of a round (single scorekeeper): https://media.giphy.com/media/vnQHsuujkaUUpkbtUg/giphy.gif

 

[joshmo65]

Sounds like it is the player's fault for not checking their scorecard and immediately going to the TD to get it fixed. How do you not notice that there is an ace on your scorecard when you know for a fact that you didn't get an ace? Annoying that the scorekeeper submitted the round right away, but easily fixable.