Selah Ranch

[jongoff09]

You don't even have to hit the peninsula to have a look at the island on hole 7. At dubs last weekend I hit the peninsula even in the heavy headwind we had, and the people we were playing with didn't even come close. One of them turned a disc way over and was behind several of those trees, but he hit the island from there.

 

[SpringDgLover]

It wouldn't be a great hole if it was easy. I contend that it's fair. A good shot is rewarded. Taking away the risk would take away the challenge of the hole. Too many trees are cut down on disc golf courses in the name of "what should be".

Golf is a test of skill that requires distance, accuracy and touch. Courses that test these skills are the best courses.

You are forgetting luck, and it is a very important aspect of course design. The ratio of luck vs. skill must be measured and kept in check, the hole does not need the trees on the penisula to make it a good hole or even a more challenging hole. They are there to punish someone through "bad luck" which is my opinion a poor idea.

 

[SpringDgLover]

You don't even have to hit the peninsula to have a look at the island on hole 7. At dubs last weekend I hit the peninsula even in the heavy headwind we had, and the people we were playing with didn't even come close. One of them turned a disc way over and was behind several of those trees, but he hit the island from there.

They did and thats fine, they got lucky my point is on a ratio of 10 shots how many times would that happen. The person who made the shot from way back executed a great shot, but that isnt the norm, nor does it account for a fair playing hole. The biggest mistake disc golfers make is they equate challenge to the old saying "Ive birdied that hole once". Yes you birdied it once, but most likely you did because luck was on your side. The idea is to make luck minimal and reward actual skill. That is good course design.

 

[jongoff09]

They did and thats fine, they got lucky my point is on a ratio of 10 shots how many times would that happen. The person who made the shot from way back executed a great shot, but that isnt the norm, nor does it account for a fair playing hole. The biggest mistake disc golfers make is they equate challenge to the old saying "Ive birdied that hole once". Yes you birdied it once, but most likely you did because luck was on your side. The idea is to make luck minimal and reward actual skill. That is good course design.

Haha, once? I only used my example because it was in a tourney and there was a pretty good headwind. Yes, it was from the short tee box (we both made 3s from there), but I would say that isn't the best angle to attack the hole from anyway. I'd rather be further left with my throw from the long. Have I made big #s on that hole? Yes, usually because I tried something I shouldn't have, but probably half the time I have made a 4 or 5 on it.

The group I was in at dubs took more throws on the short par-3 hole 6 than we did on 7 from the short. All 4 of us would have made a 4 on hole 6, and both teams had a 3 on hole 7 while one partner had secured a 4 and my partner was going to have a putt for 5. The team I played with in the afternoon also made a 3 on 7 that morning. They said it was windy when they played it too. Did you also know that it was raining, extremely muddy, and a little cool?

 

[SpringDgLover]

Haha, once? I only used my example because it was in a tourney and there was a pretty good headwind. Yes, it was from the short tee box (we both made 3s from there), but I would say that isn't the best angle to attack the hole from anyway. I'd rather be further left with my throw from the long. Have I made big #s on that hole? Yes, usually because I tried something I shouldn't have, but probably half the time I have made a 4 or 5 on it.

The group I was in at dubs took more throws on the short par-3 hole 6 than we did on 7 from the short. All 4 of us would have made a 4 on hole 6, and both teams had a 3 on hole 7 while one partner had secured a 4 and my partner was going to have a putt for 5. The team I played with in the afternoon also made a 3 on 7 that morning. They said it was windy when they played it too. Did you also know that it was raining, extremely muddy, and a little cool?

I think you misunderstand my argument, the hole is almost perfect, but the trees on that landing zone are completely unnecessary. They add an increased element of luck that cheapens the hole. I will agree that the box from the shorts is in the wrong spot that it needs to be more left.

 

[StuMagoo]

You don't even have to hit the peninsula to have a look at the island on hole 7. At dubs last weekend I hit the peninsula even in the heavy headwind we had, and the people we were playing with didn't even come close. One of them turned a disc way over and was behind several of those trees, but he hit the island from there.

Failed to mention everyone at AWD played hole 7 from the short tee.

 

[jongoff09]

Failed to mention everyone at AWD played hole 7 from the short tee.

I did in my last post, and also mentioned that I don't think the short tee box is even the best place to try to place the drive from the long. I'd much rather be further left for the approach to the peninsula.

I will agree that the box from the shorts is in the wrong spot that it needs to be more left.

I didn't say that. I think it is is great where it is at for red level players to have a par-5, I just mean that when throwing from the long, I would rather be further left after my drive.

 

[SpringDgLover]

I did in my last post, and also mentioned that I don't think the short tee box is even the best place to try to place the drive from the long. I'd much rather be further left for the approach to the peninsula.



I didn't say that. I think it is is great where it is at for red level players to have a par-5, I just mean that when throwing from the long, I would rather be further left after my drive.

Where its at now you are forcing "red level" players to either bail out way early, try to make the peninsula (with said dumb trees) or go past the peninsula and land somewhere to take a shot at the island. How is that making it a better par 5? Let me ask you this what element are the trees adding other then making a landing area smaller and increasing the likelihood of a bad kick?

 

[johnrhouck]

You are forgetting luck, and it is a very important aspect of course design. The ratio of luck vs. skill must be measured and kept in check...

Spring, I agree with you 100% about the need to maximize the role of skill and to minimize the impact of luck. And I agree with a couple other things you said.

So here is how you completely eliminate the role of luck on that second shot on Lakeside #7: throw short of the trees.

End of story. If you throw into those trees, anything can happen. If you throw short of those trees, the problem is solved. Luck disappears.

I think you said at one point that the hole was otherwise "perfect." Let me explain why I think those trees make it "more perfect." When I'm done, you can agree or not; that's fine.

1. If you play just short of the trees and up against the water, you'll have an open shot of about 200' to the circle. Maybe even 200' to the pin, I forget.

2. The closer you are to those trees, the shorter your shot to the pin. That is the type of tension between risk and reward that I hope for. From the short tee to the "point" is about 340' and leaves you 200'. Or you can go for 320' and 220'. Or 300' and 240' or... whatever you're comfortable with. I think that makes the hole much better.

3. The closer you are to the water, the more open your shot is. The farther you are from the water, the more you'll have to go around those trees. That is a second layer of risk vs. reward, and it makes the hole much, much better. Without those trees, there would be no incentive to play close to the water. So the maximum skill -- getting closer to the trees and closer to the water -- gets the maximum reward.

4. We actually took out a couple trees to make some tight alleys, so that if someone did get stuck in or behind those trees, they would have the option to go for the island through a tight gap rather than laying up. It was actually an early PITTSBORO (sand trap).

5. If those trees weren't there, you could throw a shot that would leave you with 150' to the pin, and I didn't want that. I wanted that shot to the island to be at least 200'. That way, the hole requires more skill on the second shot and more skill on the third shot.

One more thing: We did open a route around all those trees for rec players who shouldn't be throwing 200' over water. You should be able to see that alley from the red tee, but you probably wouldn't see it from anywhere else on the fairway.

There are so many little details that go into creating a hole this complex, so I hope I was able to explain my thought process. It's really hard to get all these elements to work together, but I believe they all come together just about perfectly on Lakeside #7. If you think I'm still wrong, then we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Glad we agree on the other things.

Thanks,
John

 

[sloppydisc]

I obviously need to get to Selah so I can come on here and b*tch at John about something. My life just feels incomplete right now.

 

[johnrhouck]

Come on, Mr. Sloppy. I'm sure you can think of something. If not, maybe I can remind you of something.

Of course, you can always invoke Rule 724 of discussion board usage: "You don't need to actually know something about something in order to complain about something."

 

[Qikly]

For what it's worth, as someone who will be making my first visit to Selah next week, all this discussion has been great to further whet my appetite. Can't wait!

 

[eegor]

As I'm watching the Masters on TV, I couldn't help but think of how that course would be ripped by guys on DGCR if they played it.

Selah has two great disc golf courses. I can't wait to get back out there.

 

[geoloseth]

John is right about the trees in the landing zone on the right side of the fairway. You have to make a choice off the tee (or second shot) on where you want to land. I think it's even more prominent on hole 2 on Lakeside. The trees that are next to the water force you to chose what you want to do and then execute. It's the essence of risk/reward. You can try and throw as far as you can to the left to have a dogleg right shot to the basket. Or you can take a 250' shot off the tee, keep near the water short of the trees and have another 250' hyzer to the basket.

I think alot of people think that courses punish a player for bad luck confuse risk/reward with thinking that player should be allowed to throw as far as possible on a par 4/5 type hole whenever they want. I view small amounts of trees in the fairway as being the rolling hills in the fairway of ball golf. If your ball lands in an awkward spot you could have a tougher shot simply because you landed on the wrong side of the fairway. And the large groups of trees are like bunkers. If you land in a bunker you are basically forced to punch out (take your licks, regroup, and then try again.

Just because you're in the fairway doesn't mean you should have a clear line straight to the basket. Then again hole 14 on Lakeside seems almost impossible to get near the pin from nearly anywhere you tee shot can land.

 

[grodney]

The trees on #7 are good.

 

[grodney]

John, is there (supposed to be) a mando on Lakeside #18 long tee? Some of us (including me) chose to play through the right gap, toward the #1 tee.

 

[johnrhouck]

John, is there (supposed to be) a mando on Lakeside #18 long tee? Some of us (including me) chose to play through the right gap, toward the #1 tee.

We do play a mando (left) during tournaments to force shots over the water (or to lay up by the short tee). Obviously part of the idea is to keep people off the #1 fairway, which also is the idea behind the mando on #1.

For you, if you paid your greens fee, and if there's no one on the #1 fairway, and if you can live with your conscience, then you can feel free to throw your favorite hyzer. But don't be surprised if I talk them into planting a tree there someday.

 

[Allurex]

I know this isn't about Selah, but shouldn't there be a similar Mando on #18 at Texas Twist?

At doubles my team was able to throw a hyzer almost directly right off of the teepad, into the grassy field. Left for a long, but wide open 2nd shot towards the green.

 

[sloppydisc]

Ok, let's get to the important stuff. When is the best time for a road trip to Selah? Preferably the fewest snakes and beast weather? I have lots of vacation time, and a need to play some courses. Poorly. How's September? Still too hot, or not bad?

 

[Mando]

Ok, let's get to the important stuff. When is the best time for a road trip to Selah? Preferably the fewest snakes and beast weather? I have lots of vacation time, and a need to play some courses. Poorly. How's September? Still too hot, or not bad?

Why wouldn't you go to Frost Valley ?