Whaa Whaa Worlds

[jtreadwell]

In reply to the recent posts; I am not a pro; nor am I necessairly defending their viewpoints, but, am kind of feeling the need to point out; that, as you move up in the ranks of players; you will find that (especially in the case of a week long event); that it really only takes a mistake or two a round to knock pros out of the money. Add another stroke; just to get "out of jail"; and their tourney is over and done with, in the relative blink of an eye.

Only the pros and advanced to a lesser degree, understand just how important a single stroke a round can be. Tourneys are usually won or lost by whether or not said pro (or top am) is hot with the putter. Wooded courses add another variable into play; that (they feel) is largely out of the player's hands; by their standards. These guys are used to slaying every course; every day...and depending on their hotness with the putter; as to whether or not they are victorius.

Lesser players have no real understanding of this mind set...they are playing against the course. Pros are actually playing against each other....they have a mind set of every hole is a birdie, because that is the only set set permissable. Lesser players need to put themselves into their shoes to appreciate some of their comments.

Sorry but I don't buy this at all. In a week long event you have MORE time to recover from a bad shot and more chances for everyone else to screw up. Comebacks happen all the time (there were several in the top cards at worlds this year) and one stroke can always be made up unless it's the last hole. If pros can't handle playing in the woods, they don't deserve to win. Also, if a pro gets in the mindset of playing against the other pros as opposed to the course, that pro is going to get in his/her own head and make even more mistakes. It's easy to blame trees for bad shots, they seldom contradict you when you swear at them, but what wooded courses really do is separate the men from the boys (or women from the girls) and show who has the most control.

 

[tallpaul]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBOVKy9Xz1I

First off; that is a fun looking course and a fun video....

I find it odd that I am taking the opposing view point of my personal preferences; but, here I go again:

A: I've begun to dislike all the videos filmed usine multiple shots (while kind of pretending that it's a one shot round...); as in the case of the one above; you can see by discs laying around that there was much more work to be done on many of those shots; than what the video ultimately portayed. (With that said, it should be noted that the round MJ shot; was evidently like the video; were it real time; and that feat itself, is just amazing.)

B: When I review courses (or just play them and think about, as if I were going to review); I tend to downgrade courses .5 or more; if they're like Basil. Reasons for this are a couple: 1) Allows players of lesser ability to compete with much better players; due to length and luck. 2) Because, for me personally, I am allowed, either off the tee, or with recovery shots; to use my overhand junk (tomahawks and thumbers) to keep my score fairly low.

My junk is only good up to about 250 ft., but a course of this length, allows me to get away with that in many cases....

Therefore, I personally, like to play courses like this; but realize that it does not fit the mold of much more skilled players. I actually could win some cash off of a much better; all around player; on layouts like this. Which again, is fun for me; but doesn't really speak to true skill sets.

 

[tallpaul]

Sorry but I don't buy this at all. In a week long event you have MORE time to recover from a bad shot and more chances for everyone else to screw up. Comebacks happen all the time (there were several in the top cards at worlds this year) and one stroke can always be made up unless it's the last hole. If pros can't handle playing in the woods, they don't deserve to win. Also, if a pro gets in the mindset of playing against the other pros as opposed to the course, that pro is going to get in his/her own head and make even more mistakes. It's easy to blame trees for bad shots, they seldom contradict you when you swear at them, but what wooded courses really do is separate the men from the boys (or women from the girls) and show who has the most control.

I also thought about the other side of the many round formats (after I had posted that) and agree with you on that; and think this is one GOOD reason for so many rounds to be played at Worlds.

 

[Scoot_er]

I don't know how to insert youtube vids so you can watch it here (though I'm sure someone can/will tell me how, an I'de appreciate it) but here's a link to the course I've been blabbing about. And while it's more of a walk through, and they took multiple shots on each hole (a few only 1-2) it's a great video to show the course.

But I'de like to know if anyone thinks this is a "poorly designed course" due to how tight it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBOVKy9Xz1I

Hole 1- Fine although I would like to see no trees right by the pin (so people don't come in hot, hit a tree, and stay right by the basket like the guy in the video)

Hole 2- Fine (maybe same suggestion as hole 1 but not as big a deal)

Hole 3- I like

Hole 4- (another lucky kick right by the basket) but ok

Hole 5- Truthfully I can't tell but it looks kinda sketch halfway down the fairway.

Hole 6- looks kinda sketch although probably less so than I feel.

Hole 7- Seems fin although the camera doesn't show the line.

Hole 8- Pretty sure I really like this one too!

Hole 9- If anything this is too short and open.....would rather see it at like 290ft..

Posted too early but be back with my thoughts on the back 9 and rescind my comment on hole 9 although I am not too fond of shots off the tee that mimic an upshot.

 

[Nuke]

A: I've begun to dislike all the videos filmed usine multiple shots (while kind of pretending that it's a one shot round...); as in the case of the one above; you can see by discs laying around that there was much more work to be done on many of those shots; than what the video ultimately portayed. (With that said, it should be noted that the round MJ shot; was evidently like the video; were it real time; and that feat itself, is just amazing.)

I was thinking this also but thankfully read where they basically said it's more of a course tour and it 'represents' the best possibly score. I was like "really, this kid wants me to believe he never hit an early tree and never missed a putt...ever?" Then I realized that he didn't really want me to believe that, although the description was rather hidden.

 

[1978]

I throw a lot of flick rollers and thumbers at Basil. The sure 3 is better than the chance at 2 that nets a 5. Finished 3 down in worlds and survived to score better at the other 4 courses.

This is how tight Basil is. 5300' average 300' holes. My -3 was 1001 rated!

 

[Scoot_er]

Hole 10- Another short hyzer...and as i see this it starts to remind me of Rivery in Georgetown, TX

Hole 11- rather see it a little shorter or a little longer,

Hole 12- another 2nd shot on a par 4 type shot

Hole 13- I actually like this one as well.....the elevation helps it out IMO

Hole 14- looks legit....although it adds to the <230ft holes

Hole 15- I really like

Hole 16- Assuming the trees to the right of the gap are closer to the tee than the ones on the left I think the hole is fine (basically this creates a better angle for a natural anhyzer, lefty and fh.

Hole 17- Looks fine assuming the guy hit the gap and that same gap is "before the big tree"

Hole 18- I wish he wouldn't pulled it right so I could have seen the actual line but it seems fine.

 

[crashzero]

B: When I review courses (or just play them and think about, as if I were going to review); I tend to downgrade courses .5 or more; if they're like Basil. Reasons for this are a couple: 1) Allows players of lesser ability to compete with much better players; due to length and luck. 2) Because, for me personally, I am allowed, either off the tee, or with recovery shots; to use my overhand junk (tomahawks and thumbers) to keep my score fairly low.

agreed

 

[Scoot_er]

I throw a lot of flick rollers and thumbers at Basil. The sure 3 is better than the chance at 2 that nets a 5. Finished 3 down in worlds and survived to score better at the other 4 courses.

This is how tight Basil is. 5300' average 300' holes. My -3 was 1001 rated!

And if the only stats you gave me where 5300ft with an SSA of 51 I would say it was a bad course......luckily that isn't always the case.

 

[DiscJunkie]

In reply to the recent posts; I am not a pro; nor am I necessairly defending their viewpoints, but, am kind of feeling the need to point out; that, as you move up in the ranks of players; you will find that (especially in the case of a week long event); that it really only takes a mistake or two a round to knock pros out of the money. Add another stroke; just to get "out of jail"; and their tourney is over and done with, in the relative blink of an eye.

Only the pros and advanced to a lesser degree, understand just how important a single stroke a round can be. Tourneys are usually won or lost by whether or not said pro (or top am) is hot with the putter. Wooded courses add another variable into play; that (they feel) is largely out of the player's hands; by their standards. These guys are used to slaying every course; every day...and depending on their hotness with the putter; as to whether or not they are victorius.

Lesser players have no real understanding of this mind set...they are playing against the course. Pros are actually playing against each other....they have a mind set of every hole is a birdie, because that is the only set set permissable. Lesser players need to put themselves into their shoes to appreciate some of their comments.

This is thoughtful and interesting post.
Thanks for the circumspect viewpoint.

On one hand, someone pointed out that they played 7 rounds, so it starts to flatten the impact of the random "chance" or bad luck throw.
However, why is it that the guy hitting the gaps is always the winner?

OTOH, as another poster said, if they all play the same hole, how can it be unfair?

 

[tallpaul]

I agree with your closing statements DiscJunkie; just trying to add some overall perspective.

 

[Scoot_er]

This is thoughtful and interesting post.
Thanks for the circumspect viewpoint.

On one hand, someone pointed out that they played 7 rounds, so it starts to flatten the impact of the random "chance" or bad luck throw.
However, why is it that the guy hitting the gaps is always the winner?

OTOH, as another poster said, if they all play the same hole, how can it be unfair?

It may not be unfair but it can be a poorly designed hole

 

[DiscJunkie]

I agree with your closing statements DiscJunkie; just trying to add some overall perspective.

I can only imagine the stress that goes along with trying to make a living at DG, so your points are certainly valid.
DG is just so random anyways... Wind, roots, leaning tress, foliage, etc, etc, etc.

I hadn't really thought about it from a money/payout point of view and it makes a lot of sense. In some tourneys, a few strokes makes a huge difference in payout.
Of course, I just blame myself, but I'm not a Pro...

Last point, I do agree with some points that Avery makes about the fact that "open" venues are easier to film and spectate.
But I wonder if it's just a coincidence that open course suit his game?

 

[DiscJunkie]

It may not be unfair but it can be a poorly designed hole

Couldn't agree more.
I can rant for days on how designers use poorly designed holes to create score separation. Burns my bum.

Create a good layout and you won't have to resort to odd tree placements.
End of rant.

I did not observe this problem on any of the courses that i spectated at last week. I did not get to Nevin or Bradford. I did go to Reedy Creek, Eastway and Renny and the Final Nine at HN.

 

[General Scales]

I play tightly wooded courses all the time. I believe it's made me a much better player as it made me focus on shot shaping rather then raw distance. It took me a long time to like wooded golf but now I love it. Now I have an arsenal of shots that I can use when I play open courses, which I also like.

From the video of Big Jerm, Rico and Barsby, Nevin seems absolutely fair. I've played courses where I wish I could've had that kind of landing area or that wide of a gap to hit.

 

[Captain Plastic]

The USDGC course is the best venue in the world to
challenge the world's best players. Hard, fair and every shot
matters. It is not in the woods. These top dogs have a point about
holes in the woods. Luck certainly comes into play in the woods both
good and bad. It's just how it is. You don't have to accept this but
trees in the middle of fairways is not that cool. Tons of holes in Charlotte
had tress right in the middle of the fairways.

I know, I know this pisses people off that focus on these types of holes as strengths.
Unfortunately, these types of holes will not be the ones on the main stage as this
game grows both domestically and internationally. Throwing OVER **** ain't cool either.
There is a way to make holes challenging, fair and thoughtful. John H. does this on
most of his courses so does Dave Greenwell. Fair, balanced and clean fairways are the
way it should be. Clean tunnel shots and fast greens are just a couple of ways to make
shorter holes challenging for 1000+ rated people. Not a tree that you are supposed to miss
70 feet from the basket directly in your LINE!!

Bradford was the best and most fair course MPO played in Charlotte. No trees in the
fairways, lines must be hit and had some well placed baskets. Nevin was a very lucky
and also had two holes that were tough par 3's not par 4. Especially hole 16 that is not
a par 4 sorry. Renny was second best but the tee pads are terrible and I mean they are
so bad they are dangerous to an older guy like myself.

 

[New013]

after watching the basil video i now know why opti always says our rough is so bad, it's because off the fairway there is like a magical wonderland. there's not 50 million saplings underbrush and ivy. if you go 3' off the fairway here you're in the jungle and you have to watch your step.

 

[Alcuin]

after watching the basil video i now know why opti always says our rough is so bad, it's because off the fairway there is like a magical wonderland. there's not 50 million saplings underbrush and ivy. if you go 3' off the fairway here you're in the jungle and you have to watch your step.

IMO rough should be bad. If you land in the rough, you should have a tough shot because you risked and weren't rewarded by your less than adequate effort. (This is assuming course design that isn't broken--from what I can see of the video of Nevin it looks more than fair to me).

There's a course around here (Bird's Ruins at Langer Park) that punishes every errant shot. There are plenty of wide open distance bombs, but if you don't land on the fairway, you're movement will be restricted by tall prairie (at least 4' high). There are also some difficult wooded holes that endanger par if you don't hit your line. This course is very challenging and can be frustrating (I only play if my wonderful girlfriend comes along and spots for me), but I'm in the camp that if you don't hit your line you should be punished, whether on distance or technical holes.

These NC courses sound like my kind of golf!

 

[Mattallica]

after watching the basil video i now know why opti always says our rough is so bad, it's because off the fairway there is like a magical wonderland. there's not 50 million saplings underbrush and ivy. if you go 3' off the fairway here you're in the jungle and you have to watch your step.

kinston and anderson come to mind

 

[New013]

or Leigh Farm... 3' off the fairway there and you might never find your disc.