oldmandiscer
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What is the best way to make courses challenging for the DGPT?
- Thread starter oldmandiscer
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Cgkdisc
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Putting into a smaller basket does not look like a tough 30-footer in comparison to putting 30 feet towards an elevated basket, from the rough, around a tree or up a hill.
I had actually never thought about it, but Dave McCormack was working on the Eagles Crossing project over the summer and talking about how much of a game changer it is when you think "I wish this tee was elevated another two feet" and earth movers roll in and your tee is elevated by two feet. Everything I've ever know about disc golf course design is taking advantage of what the land is giving you; having the ability to enhance what the land is giving you would be huge. It's just something that never crossed my mind because I never for the life of me thought the game would ever be where it is now.
oldmandiscer
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Elevated doesn't look tough, it's the comebacker if you airball it that matters. If you catch metal it doesn't matter, possibly a slightly greater chance to roll?
I'm not saying get rid of all obstacles either. Ideally you wouldn't need them as much right next to the basket (poop sticks).
Average PGA pros drives/shots to 800 feet: 1.12*
Average PDGA pros drives/shots to 800 feet: 2.27*
That's up to 19 more shots per round, on the longest courses.
Golf needs to fix their problem, because the sports are exactly the same.
* - Fabricated, because the quoted post was far too silly to bother researching a response. Brandolini's Law, you know.
What we really need is a radically re-designed target.
I'm thinking of a hoop, like a croquet wicket but taller, that a disc can only pass through vertically. Then people will have to roll discs through it, instead of flying them, giving us 2 distinct styles of projecting discs, the way golf does. This will encourage designers to smooth out those rough greens.
It goes without saying that it will also eliminate targets up on poles, and unless designers and TDs are really sadistic, targets on mounds as well. Everyone will surely cheer.
I'm sure as time goes by, putters will be re-designed for better balance and easier rolling. But that may not go far enough, and sooner or later some non-designer, non-TD geniuses will solve that problem, too -- make the disc spherical, so it rolls more consistently.
At which point we'll be rolling balls on smooth, nearly-level greens, and have achieved the perfection we've all been longing for.
I'm thinking of a hoop, like a croquet wicket but taller, that a disc can only pass through vertically. Then people will have to roll discs through it, instead of flying them, giving us 2 distinct styles of projecting discs, the way golf does. This will encourage designers to smooth out those rough greens.
It goes without saying that it will also eliminate targets up on poles, and unless designers and TDs are really sadistic, targets on mounds as well. Everyone will surely cheer.
I'm sure as time goes by, putters will be re-designed for better balance and easier rolling. But that may not go far enough, and sooner or later some non-designer, non-TD geniuses will solve that problem, too -- make the disc spherical, so it rolls more consistently.
At which point we'll be rolling balls on smooth, nearly-level greens, and have achieved the perfection we've all been longing for.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
I actually agree with this part.
Somebody cleverer than I will have to come up with it.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Yeah, I lack the creative spark for it as well.
Anyway, outside of satire, that's a topic for another thread.
Hampstead
* Ace Member *
It appears that we need to radically re-design the hobby of disc golf altogether.
This is the issue with all of OMD's arguments right there.
oldmandiscer
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Putts Per Hole exactly demonstrates the easiness of our putting. We are both trying to make a shot and from similar distances. Yet their 10 footer is like our 50 footer.
You can't get any further apart in terms of difficulty or challenge. Putting is extremely easy in disc golf for professionals, but it doesn't have to be.
Hampstead
* Ace Member *
If you have to lie in the form of falsifying quotes of others, your argument is probably failing.
oldmandiscer
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You did post a bunch of crap though and you do know the facts but won't admit it.
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For ball golf, the next-to-last stroke just happens to be (usually) from a lie on the green, so it is called a putt. In disc golf, that next-to-last throw just happens to be outside 10 meters, so it is not called a putt. The labels don't matter at a fundamental level.
The goal for golfers' first stroke on the green is usually to get close enough to sink the next stroke. It is like our upshot, where we are trying to get close enough to then make the only actual attempt at getting it in the target.
Sure, in both sports the lag or lay-up will sometimes go in, but it won't cause a bad score if it doesn't.
Therefore, at a fundamental level, that last attempt is the only one that will raise the score if it is missed - for both sports. And, in both sports, experts are only expected to need one attempt to make it.
We can continue the analysis to all the strokes. Each stroke needs to be good enough in order to keep up with the competition, and better than that to gain on the competition. As it happens, for most holes in both sports, all your strokes on a hole need to be in the top 90% to keep up with the competition, and all your strokes on a hole need to be in the top 50% to get ahead.
In this sense, both sports are equally difficult.
Also note this relationship won't change no matter how "difficult" each stroke is. You could make the holes three times as long, or make putting impossible outside 15 feet, and players would still need to make top-90% strokes to keep up with the competition.
Say someone decided all tee pads should be changed to pea gravel because 90% of tee throws are "successful" and they thought that was too high a percentage. If we did change the tees, the result would be that the top 90% of throws would become shorter and less accurate. That new top 90% would become the new definition of successful.
If the sport is too easy, increasing the total number of strokes expected is what will make the sport more difficult. Doing something 72 times without fail is much more difficult than doing something 54 times without fail. In that way, golf is more difficult than disc golf.
So, yes, making the tees out of pea gravel, or using tiny baskets, or making holes a lot longer, or using 24-hole courses, or anything that will force players to make more top 90% strokes in a row will make disc golf more like ball golf. But, there isn't any reason to think that focusing on any particular throw is the only way, or the preferred way, or a sufficiently effective way, to do it.
(What does not help at all is piling on penalties for that bottom 10% of all throws. But, that's a different topic and requires different math.)
oldmandiscer
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Nope, I did 66 feet on in.
None of the poll options is nuanced enough. We've been over this many times, my answers involve better designed greens, not just the limited crap your poll options present. You're just trying to create a new venue for your basket discussion.
oldmandiscer
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No I think courses need to be highly improved as well. I also think it would be easier to design fairer lines if landing inside C1 more often wasn't such a liability to the design and birdiefest that ensues.
