A couple of thoughts on 5 star reviews

[Greg Layton]

Rating inflation is running rampant; nearly everytime I log on I see two or three 5 star reviews on the front page. I'm sure most of these courses are great, but 5 stars should be pretty damn special.

Remember, a "5" is considered the ultimate. There is absolutely nothing that could be done to improve the course. It is perfect in every possible way.

Also, I'm sick and tired of reading three sentence 5 star reviews. If you are passionate enough about a course to give it 5 stars you should be able to write more than three sentences about it. And don't give me that "everyone else has already said all that can be said" crap. Forget their reviews and describe your experience in your own words. I know everyone here isn't an English major, but if you can find your way to this website you should be capable of writing rational sentences.

Here's what I propose to fix the problem:

#1 - If you rate a course 5 stars, there needs to be some sort of character minimum in your review. Maybe 1,000 letters or or a couple of hundred words, something along those lines.

#2 - If this is your first review, you can not rate a course 5 stars.

#3 - If haven't marked any courses as played (other than the course you are reviewing), you can not rate a course 5 stars.

I suppose there are ways around all three of those rules, but they'd help deter drive-by homeboyism.

As a sidenote, Timg, is there any way to see the overall average of all courses from 6/12/08, 12/12/08, and 6/12/09? I'd bet money that it's gone up at least one or two tenths of a point in that timeframe. Some of that is due to people naturally seeking out better courses to play and review, but a good chunk of it is also people over-rating their home course/area/state with little to no frame of reference.

***To be clear, this is by no way a condemnation of 5 star reviews currently on the front page... although a couple of them are questionable. I'm looking at the overall picture here.***

/rant

 

[Dave242]

There is not a single 5 star rated review on this site.

Maybe some people's motivation is to bump the average score up on the ratings on a favorite course of theirs that they feel is graded too low. Their 5 disc rating will bump up the average a bunch if there are only 1-4 other reviews, but it is insignificant once there are over around 5-10 reviews.

oh - I've rethought my first comment......just maybe you do have a point and there are 5 disc ratings and the discs are all made of Star(tm) plastic.

 

[milow369]

The problem is you are looking for a scientific outcome from data entered with no scientific criteria, or worse, data entered by people off the internet.

Unless and until voting is locked down to a few trusted individuals who have played courses across the country in every state, who are bound by rigid voting criteria, the rating system will only be a ballpark suggestion, sort of like movie reviews. Even in the scenario I just described you may not agree with a reviewer who pans your course for whatever reason. Save yourself the grief man.

The good news about the DCGR ratings is that it gets people like me (have played in a couple/few different states for about 8 years or so) to consider vacations to places like Michigan, or Kentucky or Oregon or Massachusetts when we would otherwise not.

I appreciate your thinking outside of the box when it comes to making clean output from dirty data but that's not the answer. Maybe I could type "word" 1000 times then rank 5. What if I did just play Flip City, have never had the inclination to rate a course but felt compelled to rank the course because it "spoke to me". I should be able to rank it a 5 if it so deserves. Ultimately, there are just too many variables when it comes to ranking a course to try and control them.

Sorry that your course is not being ranked like it should or is being diminished by others ranking their mediocre home courses up with your gem. It's just the internet. I don't know any other way to say it.

I don't want to create a pissing contest, but here's one real life situation to ponder. Picking on Flip City only because it's #1. If I am not mistaken, Shelby MI is under snow for a good portion of the year and is relatively unplayable during those months. Why should this course be rated a 5/5 when it can not be played all year round?

(This is probably #1 on my favorites list and I think the pictures are amazing - please save your hate mail, I am just trying to make a point)

Anyway, pack to the key point of this response. "Save yourself the grief man"

 

[srm_520]

There is not a single 5 star rated review on this site.

Maybe some people's motivation is to bump the average score up on the ratings on a favorite course of theirs that they feel is graded too low. Their 5 disc rating will bump up the average a bunch if there are only 1-4 other reviews, but it is insignificant once there are over around 5-10 reviews.

oh - I've rethought my first comment......just maybe you do have a point and there are 5 disc ratings and the discs are all made of Star(tm) plastic.

There are plenty of individual five star ratings given, just not a cumulative score. I have only given one five star rating of the 30 I have reviewed. It was to Harry Myers - (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=1347&mode=rev&page=11&sort=updated&tronly=false) in Dallas, and I still wonder if it should be reassessed as 4.5 as I get more courses under my belt.

 

[Greg Layton]

Anyway, pack to the key point of this response. "Save yourself the grief man"

Thanks for the thoughtful response, milow. I guess you're right, trying to put any sort of controls on what the internet does, based on subjective means, is an excercise in futilitiy. It doesn't hurt to open up the subject to discussion one in a while, though.

Also, for the record, I don't have a horse in the race... I just want to see DGCR be as accurate as possible. Even though I have Michigan as my avatar, Flip City isn't even the best course I've played, let alone the best in the U.S. But, then again, that's just my subjective opinion.

 

[ERicJ]

Personally, I'm in complete agreement with both Greg & Millow's sentiments. The flagrant five-star rating disgusts me. It muddies our precious data. It highlights jackhole reviewers who have no concept of the full range of courses that exist. I've got over 65+ reviews written some of them on damn fine courses and still haven't doled out a five-star rating yet.

On the other hand millow is right in that the internet is filled with jackholes. Take for example the 1,479 jackholes (as of this writing) who gave Gigli a 10 (out of 10) star rating. Clearly there is no appreciation or comprehension of cinema among them.

There have been disucssions before on this forum of ways to limit Home Boy Bias, but nothing that really solves the problem in an efficient and mostly fool-proof way has been pitched yet.

 

[milow369]

Thanks for the thoughtful response, milow. I guess you're right, trying to put any sort of controls on what the internet does, based on subjective means, is an excercise in futilitiy. It doesn't hurt to open up the subject to discussion one in a while, though.

Also, for the record, I don't have a horse in the race... I just want to see DGCR be as accurate as possible. Even though I have Michigan as my avatar, Flip City isn't even the best course I've played, let alone the best in the U.S. But, then again, that's just my subjective opinion.

The main reason I replied is because "I feel your pain", no other agenda. Full disclosure, my favorite course in the world is DeLaveaga, Santa Cruz. It is my only 5 star rating thus far. I realize that many would not rate it a 5. Thinking about it, many of the signs have graffiti, the parking situation can be problematic, etc. but all in all, it's my dg mecca, 27 or 28 holes of paradise.

As flawed as the DG rating system is, it still is effective. I never (NEVER) would have ever considered a vacation to Michigan or the surrounding KY/Cincinnati areas, but I am in fact dreaming up a fantasy disc golf week and those places are in the running. So, for that reason, the ranking system on this website is very useful to me. I also read through the course rater's descriptions and I can pick and choose which are helpful and which are not in making my decisions. While I may not agree with everyone about what constitutes a 5 star course, when I see that several people have rated a course such it gets my attention.

Anyway, get out and hit chains, Peace

 

[biscoe]

i haven't written nearly the number of reviews i should have at this point but i have never played a 5 star course in 14 years of playing. the ones i've played with the best selections of holes lack some amenity or another and the ones with the amenities have had lesser caliber of holes.

 

[Dave242]

Let's look at how an aberant 5 rating will effect the course rating average both when there are 5 reviews and 10 reviews:

1+1+1+1+1 -- 1.0 disc
1+1+1+1+5 -- 1.5 discs
1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 -- 1.0 disc
1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+5 -- 1.5 discs

3+3+3+3+3 -- 3.0 discs
3+3+3+3+5 -- 3.5 discs
3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3 -- 3.0 discs
3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+5 -- 3.0 discs

4+4+4+4+4 -- 4.0 discs
4+4+4+4+5 -- 4.0 discs
4+4+4+4+4+4+4+4+4+4 -- 4.0 discs
4+4+4+4+4+4+4+4+4+5 -- 4.0 discs

As you see the most 1 HBB 5 vote will effect the overall score is 0.5 discs. For decent-good courses 1 HBB 5 vote will make no difference.

 

[Dave242]

i haven't written nearly the number of reviews i should have at this point but i have never played a 5 star course in 14 years of playing. the ones i've played with the best selections of holes lack some amenity or another and the ones with the amenities have had lesser caliber of holes.

then lower your standards a little! I have heard plenty of 5 disc worthy comments about your course....even if you have to count cow pies as ammenities! Eventually I need to get up there for VTI....even as a spectator.

 

[Disc Dog]

I feel like maybe I do not deserve a say here but I have been playing for 2 years now and I play as much as 5 days a week. With courses played in 6 states and plans for more.

I travel some with my job and everywhere I go I try to play. The only thing that stops me is dangerous weather conditions, such as lightening or a blizzard.

When I get ready the first thing I do is come here to check on the courses nearby.

Both the ratings and reviews go into making choices. Sometimes I'm disappointed (Seatac) and on others I am surprised (Roscoe-Ewing). But I get to take what is here and sift through it and make my choice. If the reviews were done by a few select people (like movie critics) why would I want to listen. How would that relate to me. Joe Average Guy.

No system that anyone comes up with is going to be perfect, with this site growing and going through the growing pains, having an open forum gives us all an equal voice. It helps to liven up the forums and gives us all a chance to get to know one another.

I know from my own experience I have had to edit some reviews and change my ratings to be fair as my knowledge and ability to compare grows. I have yet to give a perfect 5.

I like what is done here and while it may need tweaking it is still the best way to go.

Besides an inflated rating will all work out in the end as the number of people rating a course goes up.

 

[billnchristy]

Yes but how can you tell someone that their favorite is not really their favorite.

You have to take these as they are.

If the hottest girl I ever dated was Rosanne Barr, sorry man, shes a 10 in my book.

 

[optidiscic]

Agreed I enjoy the multiple opinions on this site...I have been disappointed as often as I have been surprised......but overall this site generally gets it right. The great amount of objective information is what makes this site so wonderful. I am sure there are people who think my opinions are terrible...As long as I can decipher why someone likes dislikes a course then I can fit that into whether I might dislike or dislike that course.....A review of Nockamixon gave it a ridiculous low score but did say something like...this course is too difficult I got frustrated and did not have fun....an expert can subjectively be intrigued by this. On the same hand an expert reviewer may say about a course, this course is too simple too easy and bored me after 5 holes....a beginner may read between the lines and determine that this is a stress free course for me to work on my game on while on vacation in Fla. etc. I don't mind inflated scores as long as they are justified etc. Dave 242 ripped Idlewild with a lower score but backed it up with his opinion and the it all made sense...I like difficult/impossible approaches and a few short technical holes so I was actually more interested in playing Idlewild after reading Daves review than all of the fluffy reviews prior. Odd that the review that trashed the course actually made me the most curious of it. Why, because there was substance in that review. I don't think any scientiffic formula would work and would actually take away from the fun of this site.

 

[humchris85]

5 stars should be few and far between...

I'm going to have to agree with greg, the amount of 5 star reviews given out by people who have only played a few courses is embarassing. I've played 36 different courses, including many that aren't listed and probably never will be . There is only one course that I have played in that time that I would consider a 5 star course, and it is one that will definatly never be listed. I've played the courses considered the best in CA and NV, and still have yet to give a 5 star review. I'm planing on playing the top courses in Oregon and Washington soon so we'll see if I find a course worthy of a 5 star review.

 

[ERicJ]

Yes but how can you tell someone that their favorite is not really their favorite.

I prefer to do it like this:

 

[DirtyMittenDG]

You said--

drive-by homeboyism.

LOL!

 

[Doktor John]

Though there is plenty of myopic home course rating (I won't even review my home course) I do agree that overall things get pretty well reviewed...it is funny to see a guy who's played 2 courses rate Lucky Mud and Orchard about the same and give Orchard the tip of the hat over Lucky Mud...but to him and his skill level and likes I bet Orchard is a better course...

I know that my rating's are subjective and I have very definate likes and dislikes...I try to be as objective as possible when doing a review but that's impossible...

I've played 279 courses in 31 States and 4 countries, so I seen some good ones and some pretty awful ones...I've only rated 52 courses and have only given 4 a 5 star...those 4, to me, are the best I've ever played -- but I have some that I would rate a solid 3 that are some of my favorites because of what they offer...like Herbert Hoover...a dinky little 9 hole course in a city park that is a total blast to play and is one of my favorites...

I think by reading all the reviews for a course I can get a pretty good sense...like someone said, I am disappointed at times but other times I am pleasantly surprised...

For me, the bottom line is--I'm out on the course doing what I love rather than sitting in my hotel room rotting my brain on TV

 

[ERicJ]

I've played 279 courses in 31 States and 4 countries, so I seen some good ones and some pretty awful ones...I've only rated 52 courses and have only given 4 a 5 star...those 4, to me, are the best I've ever played -- but I have some that I would rate a solid 3 that are some of my favorites because of what they offer...like Herbert Hoover...a dinky little 9 hole course in a city park that is a total blast to play and is one of my favorites...

This is good... and I think a great example of what some of us are trying to say:

Just because it's your favorite course, does not imply that it's a five-star rated course.

Please use some objectivity in assigning the rating.

 

[solomon.trenton]

I prefer to do it like this:

now thats just freaking funny!!!

 

[tomjulio]

I think those that say this isn't a scientific variable have hit the nail on the head. This site will be all about the good reviews, ratings, and the two paired together. The smart will weed out the BS and make their own decisions on what courses they will visit and play.

It is a shame about all the drive by 5 star ratings with lackluster(that's giving too much credit to some) reviews. Most of the top five courses have that symptom bad, Idlewild and Flip both.

Some say this is the best, or that is the best, but it comes down to an uncalculatable perspective. Is a '57 Chevy better than a new Porsche? How do you compare Wrigley Field to the new Yankee Stadium? Woodstock to Loolapalooza? It is a matter of personal opinion and what one personally looks for in a disc golf course.