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"amateurs", cathegories, how can we improve them?
- Thread starter Smigles
- Start date
bschick
Bogey Member
This comment probably belongs in another thread, perhaps one of the guys running for the BOD??
Am I the only one who thinks we have way to many divisions? Why do we need age protected Am divisions? If we are going to use the ratings system, why do we need Am Masters or Am Grandmasters? Can't they just play in the Intermediate or Advanced....These divisions have SO much overlap in rating it is comical, yet we have 6-10 divisions (maybe exaggerating a bit). I am not hating on the Ams, but I just don't get it? Do we really need 15 Am World Champions in one year? Everyone's a winner... :clap:
Am I the only one who thinks we have way to many divisions? Why do we need age protected Am divisions? If we are going to use the ratings system, why do we need Am Masters or Am Grandmasters? Can't they just play in the Intermediate or Advanced....These divisions have SO much overlap in rating it is comical, yet we have 6-10 divisions (maybe exaggerating a bit). I am not hating on the Ams, but I just don't get it? Do we really need 15 Am World Champions in one year? Everyone's a winner... :clap:
Ripper
Double Eagle Member
Lil off topic!
Hey Brad you would be a perfect guy to answer this! The AM version of the BHMO, were they played on the same courses?
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/99619 - AM2 players all shooting under, yet no AM1 players shooting under? Did am2 play the West course twice?
I agree though Advanced Masters makes no sense.
Hey Brad you would be a perfect guy to answer this! The AM version of the BHMO, were they played on the same courses?
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/99619 - AM2 players all shooting under, yet no AM1 players shooting under? Did am2 play the West course twice?
I agree though Advanced Masters makes no sense.
bschick
Bogey Member
This year we did not have the West course set up, everyone played 3 rounds on the regular course. I am not positive, but the lower level Ams may have played theshort tees?
the old guys like to play with other old guys, and i don't blame them.
onemilemore
* Ace Member *
This young guy would rather play with old guys, too. They're way more chill.
bschick
Bogey Member
They still could if they all played in the same division? I just don't understand why one would want to play in a 6-8 person division when they could all play together and get 20+. I am not sure I will ever understand the double protected divisions (rating and age)....maybe the PDGA should have a division for people that have a job and more than three kids too? :wall:
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
What surprises me is the number of people who have grown up in a free market economy proposing a reduction in the number of divisions. Entrepreneurs provide products and services their customers want. It should be apparent from the success of our existing system that it evolved as a market driven response to players' desires in who they wish to compete with/against. And the payout system is also part of that.
Divisional reduction overall will not happen even if the PDGA foolishly tried to dictate that approach. Other TDs and promoters would fill the void and the PDGA would become more alienated than it has become in some quarters. We regularly see some divisional reduction happen organically when players in smaller divisions get fed up with small field sizes and decide to play in another larger division where they feel they're competitive or the event value seems worth it.
But there still seems to be resistance to ratings based events except once in a while. Perhaps those amateurs who eventually have grown up in the sport for 20+ years with the four amateur ratings levels may decide it's okay to continue that when they start turning 40 and not move to Adv/Pro Masters.
Perhaps some European entrepreneurs will realize they could borrow a page from the successful U.S. model for growth of competitive disc golf by encouraging more amateur play with bigger payouts.
Divisional reduction overall will not happen even if the PDGA foolishly tried to dictate that approach. Other TDs and promoters would fill the void and the PDGA would become more alienated than it has become in some quarters. We regularly see some divisional reduction happen organically when players in smaller divisions get fed up with small field sizes and decide to play in another larger division where they feel they're competitive or the event value seems worth it.
But there still seems to be resistance to ratings based events except once in a while. Perhaps those amateurs who eventually have grown up in the sport for 20+ years with the four amateur ratings levels may decide it's okay to continue that when they start turning 40 and not move to Adv/Pro Masters.
Perhaps some European entrepreneurs will realize they could borrow a page from the successful U.S. model for growth of competitive disc golf by encouraging more amateur play with bigger payouts.
What doesn't surprise me is that they come to a message board and give the requisite armchair bitching session about it.
You know, rather than man up and run an event according to what they desire that our tournament structure should be like, which in most instances the PDGA would probably be good with.
Now, will people show up and play that event? Well, the jury's out on that one until a would be TD makes his vision a reality.
Its not who those guys want to play with, it's who they don't want to play with. Those guys don't want to play with 20 somethings who do 20 something sperm boy stupid things, and since tourney cards are largely arranged by score, there's no guarantee that they can avoid that. Having their own division does the trick.
Obviously none of the people who so desperatley want less divisions have seen slow pitch softball leagues. Softball is huge in most parts of the country, and is flourishing. Has been for many years. They have all sorts of divisions...from AAA down to D, Men, Women, Co-Rec, over 40, over 50, etc....
For bschck: who in the hell are you to tell my 56 year olf father, who loves this ame and has been playing it since the 70s, the man who taught me and many others to pkay, who broyght disc golf (along with his two high school buddies) to the state of Montana, who has built or had a hand in designing more courses than youve probably played, who has two bad hips, a bad back and dodgy elbowa fhat he has to play in the same division as some spoiled 20 year-old brat who can throw 500 feet because his parents take care of everything in his life and he has nothing better to do than throw frisbees all day.
Thats an extreme example on my part, but your comments strike me as clueless...and, no offense, but I can tell you are lukely a younger person who hasnt had the vast array of experiences required of a broader worldview. Im not mad at you or even really trying to come down on YOU...its just the world today.
Look, its been said before by folks on here much smarter than I...free market decides how things run. Disc Golf is still new enough that ita progenitors and earliest players are atill around to play. Not a lot of sports can say that. So for aome young punk to try and chase them away because.....well, no one ever statea a reason, do they? "THERES TOO MANY DIVISIONS! WE NEED TO GET RID OF THEM!" "Why?" "BECAUSE THERES TOO MANY DIVISIONS!" "How does thay effect you and your tournament play?" "THERES TOO MANY DIVISIONS AND OLD MEN ARE KEEPING THIS SPORT FROM GROWING!"
Again, I exageratte. But seriously...who the hell cares? And who the hell are you TO care? Run an event with only two divisions. See how many people show. You will still get people, absolutley, and still get some good compwtition. But it wont be as many as you COULD get. And since most people who bitch about divisions also talk about growing the sport, I dont see how isolating huge swaths of the DG community fits their view.
/rant
:::apologies for all the typos...using my cell phone to post:::
For bschck: who in the hell are you to tell my 56 year olf father, who loves this ame and has been playing it since the 70s, the man who taught me and many others to pkay, who broyght disc golf (along with his two high school buddies) to the state of Montana, who has built or had a hand in designing more courses than youve probably played, who has two bad hips, a bad back and dodgy elbowa fhat he has to play in the same division as some spoiled 20 year-old brat who can throw 500 feet because his parents take care of everything in his life and he has nothing better to do than throw frisbees all day.
Thats an extreme example on my part, but your comments strike me as clueless...and, no offense, but I can tell you are lukely a younger person who hasnt had the vast array of experiences required of a broader worldview. Im not mad at you or even really trying to come down on YOU...its just the world today.
Look, its been said before by folks on here much smarter than I...free market decides how things run. Disc Golf is still new enough that ita progenitors and earliest players are atill around to play. Not a lot of sports can say that. So for aome young punk to try and chase them away because.....well, no one ever statea a reason, do they? "THERES TOO MANY DIVISIONS! WE NEED TO GET RID OF THEM!" "Why?" "BECAUSE THERES TOO MANY DIVISIONS!" "How does thay effect you and your tournament play?" "THERES TOO MANY DIVISIONS AND OLD MEN ARE KEEPING THIS SPORT FROM GROWING!"
Again, I exageratte. But seriously...who the hell cares? And who the hell are you TO care? Run an event with only two divisions. See how many people show. You will still get people, absolutley, and still get some good compwtition. But it wont be as many as you COULD get. And since most people who bitch about divisions also talk about growing the sport, I dont see how isolating huge swaths of the DG community fits their view.
/rant
:::apologies for all the typos...using my cell phone to post:::
Star Shark
* Ace Member *
I've never liked the age protected divisions, myself. I could play Adv Masters but I choose to play Int. Granted I don't play tournaments, generally but I think it is a waste of space in that regards. I know that we as a sport try to be all inclusive and one big happy famiily but there are some folks out there who shouldn't be playing tourneys.
Lewis
* Ace Member *
The people who want to reduce the number of divisions aren't likely to be the ones who favor free market economics. :\
I've always been a proponent of one "Open" Division that encompasses pro open and all of the am divisions.
Am/pro should be a status, not a measure of skill. You can then have pro events open only to those with pro status, am events only open to those with am status, and pro/ams that are open to anyone (all playing together).
If a player is willing to pass up cash payouts in order to compete for amateur championships, what's the problem with that?? Is that any different than a top college basketball player forgoing the draft in order to stay in school and play for a national title?
Am/pro should be a status, not a measure of skill. You can then have pro events open only to those with pro status, am events only open to those with am status, and pro/ams that are open to anyone (all playing together).
If a player is willing to pass up cash payouts in order to compete for amateur championships, what's the problem with that?? Is that any different than a top college basketball player forgoing the draft in order to stay in school and play for a national title?
^I like that. well said.
bschick
Bogey Member
Andy,
First off, take a pill my man....LMAO. I am not telling anyone what they can do, I am just asking a question. Just for your info, I am not a "younger" person...I joined the PDGA in '90 or '91 and have paid my dues every year since. When I started, there was Am I and Am II and the divisions were quite healthy and competitive. As I said before, I just think it's comical that we keep adding more and more divisions, then separate them out even further by an age protection. I don't see how that is "running" someone over 40 out of the sport. To me, that is the beauty of this sport and the ratings system. You always know where you stand based on rating.....
Whatever, it doesn't affect me....let's add more divisions to make sure everyone wins and everyone is happy. :thmbup:
gdub58
Birdie Member
Sifting through all of the drama in this post, I think you are missing the point made by those of us who are advocating for fewer divisions.
I too am in my mid 50s and in a tournament setting would not enjoy playing with overly intense kids in their 20s. I also don't enjoy playing with some of the overly talkative players in my own age group, those who ignore tournament rules, and others. So what?
The point is not that the age protected divisions need to be removed. Instead, it's that too many tournaments cater to too many groups such that we have tournaments with 60 players split among 8 or 9 divisions, and for those garden-variety B and C tiers, I would like to see fewer divisions offered. And yes, I understand that if I ran my own tournament I could do that, but we have enough of them in this area already so adding to the oversaturation is counter-productive.
And your softball comparison actually makes my point. In some parts of the country softball is growing to the point where they have many different divisions that are well-attended. It didn't start out that way - the sport grew to the point where it could support all of those different divisions. Disc golf is doing it backwards.
filobedo
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2008
- Messages
- 1,205
I have heard over the past few years that some high rated ams play advanced am because it is expensive to play pro. I personally feel entry fees are low for the majority events and curious if anyone feels it would be beneficial to increase entry fees for tournaments. The sport is very affordable compared to traditional golf in terms of equipment and greens fees and it seems entry fees have been stagnent for amatuer divisions since I started playing tournaments 7 years ago. Also, I wonder if for example, a $10 or $20 increase in tournament entry fee for advanced players rated > 970 would give the incentive for advanced baggers to move up. Occasionally I have played with some of the top Advanced Masters and Advanced Grandmasters that would have had a chance to win Open Masters every tournament they play but continue to play am although their rating may be significantly higher than others (I remember recently playing an event where the highest rated player in Advanced Masters was rated around 80 points higher than the lowest player in the division and won by around 10 shots). I also think there should be some incentive for any Am (no matter what division) that wins Worlds to move up the next year after their win. I am not saying consistency should be penalized but I feel baggers should have incentives to move up.
The problem with this is if you're putting those higher entry fees right back into payouts or prizes for the ams, then you're going to have lower rated pros moving back down to am because it ends up being far too lucrative to pass up.
_MTL_
Flippy Flopper
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2008
- Messages
- 3,515
NO. NEVER.
In fact, no one, regardless of age or rating should EVER be forced to play open. Ever.
