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Disc Golf Courses on Government Land

I e-mailed a couple of people in charge of the local USFS Rec Areas. I wasn't expecting any answers but I found two of them this morning. They both said that they are presently struggling to maintain their present recreation infrastructure due to budget cuts and can't see much more money in the near future. Another one cited the lack of water and soil and how fragile the plant life is there. One of them is familiar with disc golf and said that as far as he knows, the USFS hasn't put in or maintained any courses. All courses are on land leased from the USFS.

I am going to talk to the local ski resort and see if they would be interested but I can't see it happening. There aren't enough people or disc golfers for it to be profitable IMO.

I'd call them out on the horsesh*t regarding preservation of the environment. The history of the USFS is rife with government sanctioned activities that have left an indelible black eye on our national forests. In no particular order, these would include clear cutting by logging companies, oil and gas development, gratuitous road building, dams, etc. All of which leave 'footprints' far in excess than building a million disc golf courses ever could.

If you could raise the money for baskets and handle the install, they should clearly let you in without too much red tape.
 
I'd call them out on the horsesh*t regarding preservation of the environment. The history of the USFS is rife with government sanctioned activities that have left an indelible black eye on our national forests. In no particular order, these would include clear cutting by logging companies, oil and gas development, gratuitous road building, dams, etc. All of which leave 'footprints' far in excess than building a million disc golf courses ever could.

Yeah, 'cuz, OBVIOUSLY, a couple of civil service peons stuck in some remote local office out in the middle of flyover country have the power to make those kinds of policy decisions.
 
Yeah, 'cuz, OBVIOUSLY, a couple of civil service peons stuck in some remote local office out in the middle of flyover country have the power to make those kinds of policy decisions.

Huh? He emailed the people in charge of the rec areas. They could very easily make the decision to allow disc golf.
 
Yea it wasn't minions that I talked to. I wonder if I raised the money if they would reconsider.

Another thing that I thought was very ironic is that one of the areas that I had mentioned in my original e-mail used to be a testing area for army artillery. There are still shells out there that they haven't found yet, unexploded.
 
Yea it wasn't minions that I talked to. I wonder if I raised the money if they would reconsider.

Another thing that I thought was very ironic is that one of the areas that I had mentioned in my original e-mail used to be a testing area for army artillery. There are still shells out there that they haven't found yet, unexploded.

Uhhhh. That wouldn't be cool. <imagining> Hey, Jimbo, check out this putt. KABOOM!</imagining>
 
Huh? He emailed the people in charge of the rec areas. They could very easily make the decision to allow disc golf.

Nope. They could get the ball rolling, but it would require an EA, at best, to determine the projected impact on soils, vegetation, animal life (including breeding and nesting seasons), water sources, erosion potential, and overall cost to the forest. Even if volunteer labor was used to install the course and open the fairways, the original site assessments from engineering, recreation ensuring that all of their boxes are checked, and bringing in soil, fish, botany, and wildlife to make their judgment.

So if they somehow got the District Ranger or Forest Supervisor to approve the preliminary study for the EA, and then submitted the draft EA, then it's open for public comment. Public comment is nearly impossible to manage, because some people have pet issues that they won't let go of, and the FS has to perform their due diligence to address those concerns. Some people object to old roads being maintained for erosion because they don't want roads in the forest, and object to road decommissioning because they're afraid it will spread invasive plants.

You can identify, if you like, all of those terrible environmental transgressions for logging, roads, oil & gas... but all of those have been curtailed hugely in the last 20 years. The Forest I worked for had a budget of 300 million and 325 employees in 1990. Last year, they were down to about 60 permanent and 20 seasonal employees and under 50 million for the budget. Most of that was provided by three logging contracts in a second-growth area of the forest.

Basically, the fear of litigation and increased scrutiny from the public has led to the FS being unable to do anything quickly, so unless the land is leased from the FS for another purpose (such as a ski bowl) that already impacts the land, there is virtually no chance of a DG course going in, except on a compound as an object course. I hate it, but that's the reality.
 
The only reason that they haven't found them all yet is because the area is so remote. I would hope that with all of the walking the land, clearing brush, and general work to be done that they would find any hazards. They are occaisionally found bike hikers and bikes and then the bomb squad is called and they are safely removed.
 
MNDG... if you find a Forest Service partner who might be slightly interested... let them know about the Nature Trail Disc Golf Course concept and the upsides of that for their course installation. It could go a long way toward convincing them that it is a good idea.

Let me know what they say... or send them my way and I'll get them on board.
DSCJNKY
 
Nope. They could get the ball rolling, but it would require an EA, at best, to determine the projected impact on soils, vegetation, animal life (including breeding and nesting seasons), water sources, erosion potential, and overall cost to the forest. Even if volunteer labor was used to install the course and open the fairways, the original site assessments from engineering, recreation ensuring that all of their boxes are checked, and bringing in soil, fish, botany, and wildlife to make their judgment.

So if they somehow got the District Ranger or Forest Supervisor to approve the preliminary study for the EA, and then submitted the draft EA, then it's open for public comment. Public comment is nearly impossible to manage, because some people have pet issues that they won't let go of, and the FS has to perform their due diligence to address those concerns. Some people object to old roads being maintained for erosion because they don't want roads in the forest, and object to road decommissioning because they're afraid it will spread invasive plants.

You can identify, if you like, all of those terrible environmental transgressions for logging, roads, oil & gas... but all of those have been curtailed hugely in the last 20 years. The Forest I worked for had a budget of 300 million and 325 employees in 1990. Last year, they were down to about 60 permanent and 20 seasonal employees and under 50 million for the budget. Most of that was provided by three logging contracts in a second-growth area of the forest.

Basically, the fear of litigation and increased scrutiny from the public has led to the FS being unable to do anything quickly, so unless the land is leased from the FS for another purpose (such as a ski bowl) that already impacts the land, there is virtually no chance of a DG course going in, except on a compound as an object course. I hate it, but that's the reality.

If this is true then how do courses like China Peak get into the ground? It's on USFS property, and afaik all it took was a quick inspection of the site by the planners and they approved it.

I would HOPE that not every tiny project would be subject to an EA/EIR. That would seemingly go against the grain of what the law was intended for (large scale projects which have a serious impact). Here in california we've had an extended fight over CEQA, which has been used for decades by nimbys to slow or stop minor projects. Hopefully something similar is occurring at the federal level...though clearly not in all instances.
 
DSCJNKY- You would think I would have thought of your courses in SD's State Parks when talking about this but of course I wouldn't! I will do some more research and see what I can do.

Peterb- China Peak is at a ski resort? That's leased land from the forest service so not the same as just plain forest service land. That's already been hashed out in this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
It's on a ski mountain, so the land is leased from USFS.

Not all of it is within the ski area boundary. The USFS went through a quick review process and decided to approve the project.
 
Not all of it is within the ski area boundary. The USFS went through a quick review process and decided to approve the project.

In that case, what is the soil like there?

The places that I would look to install a course are at 8200-9500 feet altitude and have very thin, rocky soil. I'm trying to determine how much of a factor that might be or if it was just a little fluff added into his e-mail so it wasn't just financial issues.
 
In that case, what is the soil like there?

The places that I would look to install a course are at 8200-9500 feet altitude and have very thin, rocky soil. I'm trying to determine how much of a factor that might be or if it was just a little fluff added into his e-mail so it wasn't just financial issues.

I haven't been there yet, but its at a similar altitude in the sierra nevada, so probably similar conditions. My guess is that it was fluff to scare you off from inquiring further.
 
In that case, what is the soil like there?

The places that I would look to install a course are at 8200-9500 feet altitude and have very thin, rocky soil. I'm trying to determine how much of a factor that might be or if it was just a little fluff added into his e-mail so it wasn't just financial issues.

He was most likely just mentioning a few environmental concerns. The concerns I see from a soils prospective are:
Compaction (obvious),
Trampling of native vegetation,
Erosion on bare slopes (water and wind),
Establishment of weeds, most likely cheatgrass, and
Inability for re-establishment of native vegetation due to short growing season, wind, and poor soil quality.

Since the FS should be focused long-term, I think even smaller projects like you are proposing should go through an EA process. Obviously a less substantial EA than a mining permit on Forest lands or an oil/gas lease on BLM land, but a study and time for public comments are a necessity because it is a public land.

Sorry to be so wordy. But I don't like seeing people ignore the potential environmental issues. I'm just trying to show you what could have been the FS employee's reasoning for mentioning soil, based on my own experiences as an environmental consultant in Wyoming. You are right in thinking that it is mostly a budget issue. That being said, if you somehow get a course installed in the area I will definitively make a trip down to play it. Isn't there a secret course at Vedauwoo?
 
He was most likely just mentioning a few environmental concerns. The concerns I see from a soils prospective are:
Compaction (obvious),
Trampling of native vegetation,
Erosion on bare slopes (water and wind),
Establishment of weeds, most likely cheatgrass, and
Inability for re-establishment of native vegetation due to short growing season, wind, and poor soil quality.

Since the FS should be focused long-term, I think even smaller projects like you are proposing should go through an EA process. Obviously a less substantial EA than a mining permit on Forest lands or an oil/gas lease on BLM land, but a study and time for public comments are a necessity because it is a public land.

Sorry to be so wordy. But I don't like seeing people ignore the potential environmental issues. I'm just trying to show you what could have been the FS employee's reasoning for mentioning soil, based on my own experiences as an environmental consultant in Wyoming. You are right in thinking that it is mostly a budget issue. That being said, if you somehow get a course installed in the area I will definitively make a trip down to play it. Isn't there a secret course at Vedauwoo?

There is an unmarked object course in Vedauwoo. I am moving from Laramie in 2 weeks so I'm not pursuing this any further. They weren't cooperating at all anyway.
 
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