Fast-Filling Events

[MarkDSM]

Local Ice Bowl changing to adapt this year.

-moved from a city course to a state park
-8a to 1p flex start
-groups of 4-5 can be mixed divisions
-one round of 27 using 9 temp baskets
-no chili contest
-" With circumstances being what they are, the Club has committed to a minimum 80% of the proceeds to be contributed to the Food Bank of Iowa."

Flex start is not done often in my area. Used to be a low dollar doubles flex the day before the big tourney of the year.

 

[biscoe]

Flex starts. Run more flex starts surrounding fast filling events. They require zero prep, zero player packs, and TD just sits back and collects cash and checks players in. There is a TD in CO that runs 5-10 flex a year, does nothing, and gets 20 bucks a pop at 100-150 people.*He literally does nothing but drink beer and check people in.

This takes the strain off regular events and has minimal time/labor commitments.

I assume these events have Amateur payouts?

 

[DiscFifty]

Flex starts. Run more flex starts surrounding fast filling events. They require zero prep, zero player packs, and TD just sits back and collects cash and checks players in. There is a TD in CO that runs 5-10 flex a year, does nothing, and gets 20 bucks a pop at 100-150 people.*He literally does nothing but drink beer and check people in.

This takes the strain off regular events and has minimal time/labor commitments.

Yep, here in the DFW area we have over 50, 1 round flex start c-tiers planned for the 2021 season. They cost 20-25 to play. I will more than likely never play a local 2-3 round time consuming, up at the crack of dawn, PDGA event again.

I'm curious, is it pick your own group flex start or is it done some other way? I'm wary of flex starts.

You and your friends can show up and play. There is probably some shenanigans. Cheaters gonna cheat. But you can also just show up and be forced to play on a card, so there is some randomness happening.

I assume these events have Amateur payouts?

Yes, cash for open, merch for ams. Never...any player packs.

 

[txmxer]

If it is a public course on city land, do you contact the Parks department?

 

[Norvelljeff]

I'm curious, is it pick your own group flex start or is it done some other way? I'm wary of flex starts. They would seem to have the same problem as flex start leagues if you are allowed to pick your own group. I'm thinking of things like score card shenanigans and mulligans when buddies get to pick each other to throw with.

Pick your own group yes. I'd like to think stuff like that is minimal within our sport and can be observed by other cards or the TD on digital scoring.

It is one of the downfalls but in the end, it's a one-round C tier.

 

[Norvelljeff]

If it is a public course on city land, do you contact the Parks department?

That is up to you but the guy I know that hosts them has such a great relationship with the parks dept that they don't even charge him if he isn't "planning" on having X amount of people. With a regular tournament you know exactly how many participants are going to be there, with flex starts, you have ambiguity on your side.

Flex starts are absolutely money for TD's. Just cash baby

 

[ToddL]

I believe the PDGA has 2,000 sanctioned events per year, though I'm too lazy to check.

2020 had 3000 tournaments plus 400 leagues, and that was with sanctioning being shut down from March to May. Will probably be 4000+ this year.

 

[autocrosscrx]

Flex starts are kind of weird.

I'm sure it is fantastic if you can pair up with friends.

...but standing around waiting to get paired with strangers sounds awful. In fact, I know it is awful. It is the primary reason I quit golf when I quit playing competitively in college.

 

[JRW III]

It depends in your area as to events being held, maybe in your area you have a tournament every week? That's not true for all of the country at all though and the entire point of the PDGA is to PLAY in tournaments.

"We don't have enough tournaments so why be a member?"

"The tournaments I wanted to play sold out in 2 minutes, now I'm pissed off and won't rejoin the PDGA."

These are real world problems.

So you can either raise the price per event or create more events. How do you create more events? We need more TD's. Why don't we have more? Because for many it's not worth it to run it (for the good of the game) or to see their friends have fun. So then you need to incentivize people and the easiest way is to ensure that they get X amount per player guaranteed.

As far as the math, you don't know because that's a hypothetical number as it could be much more based on how many events the avg PDGA member plays. Maybe an extra "$100" per event per TD won't matter to you, but to others it certainly might and it certainly could be more based on a large event. 150 players at 2 bucks is 300 dollars.

I think the PDGA has a responsibility to ensure that enough events are being held so members are continued to be satisfied and will continue to be members. It's an investment into themselves and the game. They'd be foolish not to consider it.

I agree with the concept of letting TD's make more to encourage more TD's to step up. However, I don't think it should be the PDGA paying the TD's. No need for the PDGA to increase/make a fee just to turn around and give it to the TD. I would suggest lowering the minimum payouts and let the TD (an his particular market) determine what the TD should be paid.

 

[oldmandiscer]

I agree with the concept of letting TD's make more to encourage more TD's to step up. However, I don't think it should be the PDGA paying the TD's. No need for the PDGA to increase/make a fee just to turn around and give it to the TD. I would suggest lowering the minimum payouts and let the TD (an his particular market) determine what the TD should be paid.

It certainly depends on the State you live or even city. Texas had 289 PDGA events last year. ND had 5. Maine had 17. Louisiana 22. Nevada 17. Wyoming 7. New Mexico 10.

Even some high population states like Connecticut had 17, Delaware 13. Why be a member when so few events are available to play?

Maybe I should have looked at 2019 though, pre covid as that would have been a more accurate number.

 

[JRW III]

Flex starts are kind of weird.

I'm sure it is fantastic if you can pair up with friends.

...but standing around waiting to get paired with strangers sounds awful. In fact, I know it is awful. It is the primary reason I quit golf when I quit playing competitively in college.

DGScene has a new function where you can set up tee times. For the flex starts, players can then pick their tee time when they register and know who they are playing with. No more waiting around.

Overall, I have been impressed with the technology advancements the PDGA has been making. The digital scorecards have been a huge benefit to the TD's running the tournaments. I hope the PDGA continues down this path as it is a great way to help the members.

 

[biscoe]

Overall, I have been impressed with the technology advancements the PDGA has been making. The digital scorecards have been a huge benefit to the TD's running the tournaments. I hope the PDGA continues down this path as it is a great way to help the members.

Yep. The PDGA has been improved more by Steve Ganz and Pete Crist than anyone else in my time working with them. Ganz has just retired from his post so hopefully things will continue on the trajectory he has set.

 

[ru4por]

Yep. The PDGA has been improved more by Steve Ganz and Pete Crist than anyone else in my time working with them. Ganz has just retired from his post so hopefully things will continue on the trajectory he has set.

Good post. Interesting, that this seems to have been a trajectory, not initiated, but significantly accelerated, by COVID. Use of the tournament and scoring applications have been fantastic COVID tools to keep tournament players safer.

The resulting benefits to the TD and tournaments have been numerous and honestly surprising in a few cases.

 

[ToddL]

Good post. Interesting, that this seems to have been a trajectory, not initiated, but significantly accelerated, by COVID. Use of the tournament and scoring applications have been fantastic COVID tools to keep tournament players safer.

The resulting benefits to the TD and tournaments have been numerous and honestly surprising in a few cases.

I'm not sure if the development has been accelerated by COVID, but the adoption certainly has been. Live scoring has been available for years but I would get this type of crap all the time: https://www.pdga.com/apps/tournament/live/event?eventId=34297&division=MPO&view=Scores&round=1
COVID finally got the players to try it, and once they tried it they discovered it's pretty great. And, of course, the continuous improvements to it make it a better experience than it was in 2018.

I can assure you the tech team is not slowing down. There's plenty of more items on the list for development or refinement.

 

[biscoe]

What Covid has done is allow us to force live scoring down the throats of pretty much everyone, even the detractors (I was one myself at one point). While we are not allowed to literally force everyone to use it that is still pretty much what it amounts to.

As a TD I find it a bit of a wash- no counting scorecards or entering data after the event but more setup needed beforehand. As a player I find it fun to be able to see what my competitors are shooting at a given moment. This has resulted in making some choices to "play for the win" or not- some of those have worked out and some not as well. In terms of the pandemic it is a godsend.

 

[_MTL_]

As a TD I find it a bit of a wash- no counting scorecards or entering data after the event but more setup needed beforehand.

I am doing less work upfront. No printing leaderboard cards, manually sorting the boards, etc.

It's not even close to a wash. It's saving hours and hours.

 

[_MTL_]

There's still one big flaw with the online scoring.

The 2021 rules require the TD provide a second scorecard b/c the competition committee is so scared that online scoring won't work, leads to cheating, etc.

First off, what's more likely to happen? someone to cheat on paper and you miss it 2 hours later or someone cheating on a phone and that score being immediately reported to everyone online?

But I agree, it's easier to make errors with the online scoring than with paper, so the new rule is in place.

Each group should have two people log in to the scoring app and then designate one as the official and one as the backup. The every hole the app should compare the scores and if any aren't correct, it sends an alert to correct. This solves every concern with online scoring.

 

[ru4por]

What Covid has done is allow us to force live scoring down the throats of pretty much everyone, even the detractors (I was one myself at one point). While we are not allowed to literally force everyone to use it that is still pretty much what it amounts to.

As a TD I find it a bit of a wash- no counting scorecards or entering data after the event but more setup needed beforehand. As a player I find it fun to be able to see what my competitors are shooting at a given moment. This has resulted in making some choices to "play for the win" or not- some of those have worked out and some not as well. In terms of the pandemic it is a godsend.

No crowding around the board for hole assignments, avoiding personal contact with a member of each group to gather cards and the immediate result turnaround allows the TD to get divisions awarded and gone immediately. Inhibits larger crowd gatherings at the end of the tournament. Not to mention facilitates one of the tenets of our successful tournament goals. Combined with a clear, concise recorded video player meeting and caddy book for our A Tier, it eliminates any sort of on site players meeting.

I am even an outlier, as a player, I do not own a cell phone. This has not been an issue so far. I have been able to have cardmates keep score and generally volunteer to be the keeper of a paper back up.

There have been some hiccups. We have a course, often used, that a couple providers struggle for a signal. TD setup took some practice and player use was a small learning curve. The feedback for us was overwhelmingly positive.

So....I guess I agree with the bolded.

 

[ru4por]

I am doing less work upfront. No printing leaderboard cards, manually sorting the boards, etc.

It's not even close to a wash. It's saving hours and hours.

And the savings is at the TD's convenience, sitting on a couch. Not when there are dozens of other tasks needed attention. :hfive:

 

[oldmandiscer]

There's still one big flaw with the online scoring.

The 2021 rules require the TD provide a second scorecard b/c the competition committee is so scared that online scoring won't work, leads to cheating, etc.

First off, what's more likely to happen? someone to cheat on paper and you miss it 2 hours later or someone cheating on a phone and that score being immediately reported to everyone online?

But I agree, it's easier to make errors with the online scoring than with paper, so the new rule is in place.

Each group should have two people log in to the scoring app and then designate one as the official and one as the backup. The every hole the app should compare the scores and if any aren't correct, it sends an alert to correct. This solves every concern with online scoring.

I agree you need two cards per round. It will eliminate any cheating and careless errors. It never made sense to me to have one scorecard in the first place. In golf you score your own score (one detachable) and that of a playing competitor in large AM events I played anyways. So you actually have 8 scorecards per round in a 4some. You have no messing up of scores and no way of cheating (I guess if you and a friend got his card or something).

I remember in 2013 I heard McBeth was questioning the scores of a group of Prodigy players or something like that. Two cards would help eliminate some potential cheating or the thought of others cheating.