How I Would Change the PDGA

[MikeK]

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. I retract the toothless references, Mr. Shive. Well played.

Thank you for the entertaining June minutes. Now we know who continues to support unequal treatment of TDs. It's easy to conclude that there's other shady business going on while the pDGA turns a blind eye, isn't it? Ah, but we don't really have the time to list every pDGA example of that do we?

At least we can all get a good laugh now speculating about which TDs are delinquent and are allowed pDGA sanctioning for free. What a deal, must be nice to be connected!

Maybe I'll sanction my tournaments with the pDGA now, if I only have to promise to eventually pay sometime! I mean after all Pete, you know how much I've done for disc golf wink wink nudge nudge

Oh yeah, $31,000 to produce that 1/2 hour show? That's comedy gold. I must have read that wrong.

 

[shive]

June minutes

I can't find a copy of the June minutes on the PDGA site. Have they been posted yet?

They were approved at the July teleconference, but for some reason haven't been posted yet. I'm guessing that the Office is busy with Am Worlds and hasn't got to it yet.

 

[crashzero]

I think the most obvious example of entitlement in the AM ranks is the expectation of showing up at an athletic competition and not having to compete with those competitors who happen to be better than they are at that particular athletic endeavor.

agreed

 

[harr0140]

Interesting info here . . . I will be following along.

 

[TalbotTrojan]

Hey Peter,

Have you felt any ill will from anyone else on the board or affiliated with the PDGA for what you are doing as a board member? I would imagine that trying to shake things up can't be easy. Do you have confidence that the PDGA as it is currently organized can become the governing body of a major sport that deserves television time on major networks?

For the most part I am very happy with the PDGA and what they do to help make the sport I love as great as it is. But I also have a feeling that there are some who might be unappreciative of what you are trying to do and some that feel entitled because of what they do. Surely this is a problem that exists in most if nto all organizations.

I am not looking to out anyone, just trying to get a general feel for your experience and confidence in the PDGA.

 

[Lewis]

I think the most obvious example of entitlement in the AM ranks is the expectation of showing up at an athletic competition and not having to compete with those competitors who happen to be better than they are at that particular athletic endeavor.

agreed

I don't want to derail this thread, but dscmn's expressed opinion doesn't make any sense to me. What's wrong with competing against people at your own skill level, rather than only ever competing against professional athletes? There must be something more to his comment than meets my eye.

In an effort to bring the post back to the topic, I wonder if the current board members believe the PDGA has enough resources to effectively "serve" the goals of both the pros (the "p" in PDGA) and the amateurs. If not, which class of players is going to get the lion's share?

 

[shive]

Hey Peter,

Have you felt any ill will from anyone else on the board or affiliated with the PDGA for what you are doing as a board member? No. Although I'm sure that I have exasperated folks, I have always been treated politely. Perhaps even more politely than I deserved. I would imagine that trying to shake things up can't be easy. Do you have confidence that the PDGA as it is currently organized can become the governing body of a major sport that deserves television time on major networks? In this thread I have characterized disc golf as a game that is wonderfully playable, but not profitably watchable. So I believe that it doesn't make sense to aspire to "deserve television time on major networks". This is a fundamental quality of the game that no governing body could overcome.

For the most part I am very happy with the PDGA and what they do to help make the sport I love as great as it is. Then you shouldn't vote for me, because I, obviously, am not happy with what the PDGA is doing. But I also have a feeling that there are some who might be unappreciative of what you are trying to do and some that feel entitled because of what they do. If you are happy with what the PDGA is doing, then you yourself should be unappreciative of what I am trying to do. Surely this is a problem that exists in most if nto all organizations. Of course it is. Any organization that has a complex mission involving money will have dissenters, although it may be unlikely in most that dissenters reach the level of the Board of Directors. It is in fact precisely because I am a dissenter that I have been so open and specific in my current campaign. I want the membership to be very clear about where I am coming from. They elected me, so anything less would be unfair to them.

I am not looking to out anyone, just trying to get a general feel for your experience and confidence in the PDGA. If you look through my comments on this thread, you will get a very detailed feel for my opinions.

See comments in red.

 

[turbosteve]

Hey Peter,
Recently the final round of the European Open was televised live on Finnish National television. Do you think disc golf could become a huge spectator sport overseas similar to Table Tennis or Canoe/Kayaking?

 

[Toro71]

I think what the PDGA and the sport has done is create an entitlement mentality with AM's. They have pandered to lower players too much, and now they have taken away the motivation to improve and play at a higher level. Its easier to just turn against the pros than to try and become one, and now they have support on that stance.

If growing the sport at the lower levels is the answer, then we are already there. The number of casuals and rec players is exploding, but competitive and high level golf remains stagnant since it peaked in the early 2000's. Now we have eternal AM's that can play in various divisions forever if they choose. Pro's still aren't making any real cash so very few players even bother to move up. The PDGA allows this, I don't blame the players, I blame the decision makers for creating the environment we are in now.

Heard

 

[shive]

Hey Peter,
Recently the final round of the European Open was televised live on Finnish National television. Do you think disc golf could become a huge spectator sport overseas similar to Table Tennis or Canoe/Kayaking?

I do not know about the economics of spectator Table Tennis or Kayaking in Europe. You can put almost anything on TV that you want if you have enough money to pay for it. The questions that need to be answered first are:
1) How much did it cost to produce and televise the Eurpoean Open show?
2) Who paid for it?
3) How many people actually watched it?
4) What were the positive results of the watching?

 

[smyith]

Peter,

I think I remember when you were last running for the BoD you mentioned something about splitting the pDGA between Pros and Ams and something along the lines of making the Pro side a for-profit. if this was you, have you ever presented this to the rest of the board?

 

[turbosteve]

See comments in red.

I do not know about the economics of spectator Table Tennis or Kayaking in Europe. You can put almost anything on TV that you want if you have enough money to pay for it. The questions that need to be answered first are:
1) How much did it cost to produce and televise the Eurpoean Open show?
2) Who paid for it?
3) How many people actually watched it?
4) What were the positive results of the watching?

I have no clue who paid for it or what it cost but about 270,000 people watched Paul McBeth's final putt. The positive results of the live broadcast include recreational players deciding to play more competitively and casual viewers deciding to take the game up as a hobby. Park departments may decide to put more courses in because it was broadcast on National TV as well.

 

[scarpfish]

TV in Finland must suck.

 

[dscmn]

I don't want to derail this thread, but dscmn's expressed opinion doesn't make any sense to me. What's wrong with competing against people at your own skill level, rather than only ever competing against professional athletes? There must be something more to his comment than meets my eye.

In an effort to bring the post back to the topic, I wonder if the current board members believe the PDGA has enough resources to effectively "serve" the goals of both the pros (the "p" in PDGA) and the amateurs. If not, which class of players is going to get the lion's share?

I don't think we can agree on what constitutes a "professional" athlete if you think I'm one. Professional in disc golf simply means willing to compete against anyone. That's it. I have no problem with competitions that limit competitors by skill level. The problem arises when competitors are disallowed from competing in these skill-based competitions, ones in which they qualify, simply because of their willingness to welcome all competitors in other open competitions.

Don't forget that the entire divisional structure created and maintained by the pdga and the ratings system of the pdga is entirely for the benefit of amateur competition. Neither is necessary for open style competitions. That is certainly a big chunk of the lion's share.

 

[smyith]

I think the most obvious example of entitlement in the AM ranks is the expectation of showing up at an athletic competition and not having to compete with those competitors who happen to be better than they are at that particular athletic endeavor.

I think what the PDGA and the sport has done is create an entitlement mentality with AM's. They have pandered to lower players too much, and now they have taken away the motivation to improve and play at a higher level. Its easier to just turn against the pros than to try and become one, and now they have support on that stance.

interesting that the pros think that the AMs feel entitled and the AMs think the pros feel entitled. however, i noticed both of these people complete skipped over (ignored) Mashnuts post.
@crashzero
i dont think you quite have it right. its not about not trying to move up, i think alot of AMs are self-defeatist and feel like they will never make it to the status so the give up and settle. but really who cares if an am wants to be an am.

I'd be interested in hearing how you think there's more of an entitlement mentality in the am side of the sport than in the pros where it's expected that money will be taken from the am side of the tournament and TDs will spend volunteer time drumming up sponsorship money to pay them to play a game.

i happen to think both parties have become overly entitled. from the pros thinking they should get every ounce of resources from the TD and AMs to the AMs feeling they deserve a players pack and payout and more protecting from bagging. the entitlement street goes both ways.
but i still am curious, why do pros feel entitled to all the added cash and profits from a TD?
And the same question goes, why do AMs feel entitled to receiving a players pack/payout?
honestly i cant answer each myself, i am not a pro, nor do i feel added cash should always go to the pros. personally i feel that added cash should be distributed based on division participation. and AMs certainly do nto deserve a players pack at any event. the only thing i feel i should get when i arrive at a tournament is a welcome and a caddy book.

 

[coupe]

The positive results of the live broadcast include recreational players deciding to play more competitively and casual viewers deciding to take the game up as a hobby.

Really? Less than a week after the broadcast, and you already have the statistics to show a measurable uptick in the number of players competing in tournaments and the number of new and/or first-time players? Or is this just another instance of Dueslerian hyperbole?

 

[turbosteve]

Really? Less than a week after the broadcast, and you already have the statistics to show a measurable uptick in the number of players competing in tournaments and the number of new and/or first-time players? Or is this just another instance of Dueslerian hyperbole?

Google trends show that there have been a lot of people googling disc golf in Finland.
http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=disc+golf#q=disc golf&geo=FI&cmpt=q

 

[ScottyLove]

personally i feel that added cash should be distributed based on division participation.

This is exactly how most of the tournaments I play in around SW and Mid-Missouri are done... the added cash is divided into the divisions base on each division field size. That's how I got $147 voucher for winning Rec a few weeks back!

 

[smyith]

This is exactly how most of the tournaments I play in around SW and Mid-Missouri are done... the added cash is divided into the divisions base on each division field size. That's how I got $147 voucher for winning Rec a few weeks back!

*Warning* Prepare for the "this encourages sandbagging" comments ahead.

I would think the business who gave the TD that money would want it to be put towards the eyes that are actually seeing it. Whether it be Jrs, Ams, or Pros. But hey call me crazy.

 

[coupe]

Google trends show that there have been a lot of people googling disc golf in Finland.
http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=disc+golf#q=disc golf&geo=FI&cmpt=q

BHFD. All that shows is that relatively more people in Finland searched for disc golf during and immediately following the broadcast than previously. It doesn't tell you whether the actual number of searches represents a 2x, 3x, 5x, 20x, or 100x increase over the previous high, or the number of searches uptick represents: A 10x increase from 20 searches is not significant; a 2x increase from 100,000 is.

So how many recreational players have started playing competitively and how many casual viewers actually took up disc golf as a hobby (implies continuing, regular participation, as opposed to tried it once or twice for kicks, as a result of the broadcast?