turbosteve
Eagle Member
One thing the PDGA can do better is to use HARO.
http://go.helpareporter.com/ppc/ear...&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=harofree-pub2
http://go.helpareporter.com/ppc/ear...&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=harofree-pub2
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How I Would Change the PDGA
- Thread starter shive
- Start date
You think we're anywhere close to where we need to be to attract "big industry"? I sure don't. Even our biggest tournaments have a really small number of people watching outside the competitors and maybe a handful of locals who come out to watch. Disc golf just isn't much of a spectator sport, not nearly enough people know what it is or care, why would they spend a weekend out in a park watching it?
That's one of the points of building that grassroots effort. If a good percentage of kids play it at some point in school, they're a whole lot more likely to stop by and see what's going on at a big tournament in their area. It's a much easier and more effective way of increasing the spectator pool, certainly more likely to succeed than any of the other suggestions I've seen.
Sponsors aren't attracted just because you put on a good event. They're attracted by a venue where they can get a lot of eyes on their advertising and product. No matter how great you make a pro tour, it's not going to bring in anything like the numbers you'd need for a company outside our sport to care.
Is there a way the PDGA can benefit my local disc golf community without having to have a tournament. I'm not a tournament minded person. I understand how the PDGA helps when you ask them for a hand running a tournament or installing a course. But that always requires a local disc golfer to do an enormous amount of leg work anyways.
So here I am. I want to support disc golf. But how is my $50 benefiting my community outside of what tournaments do? Is that ALL they can do for the sport? Whens the last time a PDGA representative came to your town to install a course or set up a day to teach kids to play.
When a local person does organize a day activity or propose a course, is having the PDGA name behind it all that helpful? I would assume for tournaments, yes, sanctioned events bring in the golfers. But what about everything else disc golf. In a few weeks I'll be proposing a course to the community. PDGA didn't have any resources for me other than things I all ready knew. If I say to the public "PDGA approves this" will anybody care? If I give PDGA $50 and I want help teaching kids or installing courses, am I getting my $50 worth?
I'd recommend the PDGA heavily promotes the open tours for the sake of newsworthy recognition. Big dollars and big attendance grab attention quick. ALSO, I'd recommend the PDGA do more on the grass roots level. Like what? They should play off of what Ace Races and Birdie Bashes are. They are simple templates for less serious players to get organized and have non-tournament fun.
So here I am. I want to support disc golf. But how is my $50 benefiting my community outside of what tournaments do? Is that ALL they can do for the sport? Whens the last time a PDGA representative came to your town to install a course or set up a day to teach kids to play.
When a local person does organize a day activity or propose a course, is having the PDGA name behind it all that helpful? I would assume for tournaments, yes, sanctioned events bring in the golfers. But what about everything else disc golf. In a few weeks I'll be proposing a course to the community. PDGA didn't have any resources for me other than things I all ready knew. If I say to the public "PDGA approves this" will anybody care? If I give PDGA $50 and I want help teaching kids or installing courses, am I getting my $50 worth?
I'd recommend the PDGA heavily promotes the open tours for the sake of newsworthy recognition. Big dollars and big attendance grab attention quick. ALSO, I'd recommend the PDGA do more on the grass roots level. Like what? They should play off of what Ace Races and Birdie Bashes are. They are simple templates for less serious players to get organized and have non-tournament fun.
disc qualified
Banned
Disc Golf has taken a substantial step backwards from the 1980's in terms of major money sponsorship. What can be done to bring non-DG corporate sponsorship back into the game? Redbull points series or something like that.
The PDGA has a lot of historical needs and wants that have developed into things that are done because that is what they always have done. Remember, the modern (post Kransco) PDGA was developed by a group of professional Frisbee players who had just had all the Wham-O money yanked out from under them. The organization was developed with a goal of replacing that money so that they could continue to be professional Frisbee players. It had nothing to do with amateur play, growing the sport, etc. All of that was secondary. The primary goal then was as it is now: find money to pay people to play Frisbee.
That goal made sense to a bunch of professional Frisbee players in the mid 1980's. Does it make sense anymore? If it doesn't, why is it still the primary goal of the organization? Are you really the leadership of all of disc golf, or a small group of disc golfers with their heads in the sand leading no one to nowhere?
I think the PDGA needs to stop, sit down and say "imagine there is no PDGA. We don't exist. There are disc golf courses and disc golfers and a need for an organizing body. What would that organizing body look like?" Throw out thing that you do because you have always done them and things you do because it made sense in 1988 and focus on what that hypothetical organization should do. Every time you list something that the hypothetical organization would do that is something the PDGA currently does, ask yourselves if it really needs to be done or if you are just including it to validate what you already do. Be brutal, be honest, really look at disc golfers today and what the sport needs, not what this groups wants and what that group wants. Ignore pressure from this group or that group, just design what that hypothetical organization would look like. Don't be afraid of change; be confident that there is a place for the PDGA even if the role changes.
After you do that, you can compare the hypothetical organization to the PDGA and see where the PDGA needs to change. Then you can start figuring out how to make those changes. You have to have that overall goal first, otherwise you get willy-nilly change to pander to this group and that group and in the end you get an organization that tried to make everybody happy and in the end makes no one happy. Like the PDGA. :|
That goal made sense to a bunch of professional Frisbee players in the mid 1980's. Does it make sense anymore? If it doesn't, why is it still the primary goal of the organization? Are you really the leadership of all of disc golf, or a small group of disc golfers with their heads in the sand leading no one to nowhere?
I think the PDGA needs to stop, sit down and say "imagine there is no PDGA. We don't exist. There are disc golf courses and disc golfers and a need for an organizing body. What would that organizing body look like?" Throw out thing that you do because you have always done them and things you do because it made sense in 1988 and focus on what that hypothetical organization should do. Every time you list something that the hypothetical organization would do that is something the PDGA currently does, ask yourselves if it really needs to be done or if you are just including it to validate what you already do. Be brutal, be honest, really look at disc golfers today and what the sport needs, not what this groups wants and what that group wants. Ignore pressure from this group or that group, just design what that hypothetical organization would look like. Don't be afraid of change; be confident that there is a place for the PDGA even if the role changes.
After you do that, you can compare the hypothetical organization to the PDGA and see where the PDGA needs to change. Then you can start figuring out how to make those changes. You have to have that overall goal first, otherwise you get willy-nilly change to pander to this group and that group and in the end you get an organization that tried to make everybody happy and in the end makes no one happy. Like the PDGA. :|
Something that would come out of that process is sacred cows. If you state that everything is up for grabs and nothing would be guaranteed, people will freak out that their special interest should be off the table. They will say (for example) "We HAVE to have an NT*, that should just be listed as a 'do' without discussion." Why do they want the sacred cow to be protected? Fear. They want it, are afraid they can't justify it and don't want people really looking at it with a critical eye. It can be very informative to understand what your "sacred cows" are.
*Note: I used NT as an example because I needed to say something, not to imply that the NT is a sacred cow.
*Note: I used NT as an example because I needed to say something, not to imply that the NT is a sacred cow.
I'm not saying there needs to be more money for the pro tour. I'm just saying the idea of taking money away from that to focus more on the am experience is not in the best interest of the organization in the long run.
Peter,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. In a similar vein of how I replied to Mashnut earlier, I'm not talking about giving pros necessarily more money. I'm talking about creating an environment in which outside cash will generate larger purses for tournaments. As I stated before - most people drive by a NT event and don't know what is happening. If I were to grade the PDGA, it would be based on the Professional National Tour that they run. If people don't know it exists...then unfortunately the governing body gets a failing grade for me. It's that simple.
I'd also like to respond to your platform on the "little people of the PDGA". While I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here - I feel very strongly that this stance is antithetical to the point of a professional governing body of a sport. The NFL doesn't run the collegiate game, nor the high school game, nor the pop warner leagues (and examples can be made for most other sports as well). The PDGA needs to focus on the "P" in it's name and run a fantastic professional tour. ***Please do not misunderstand me. I'm not saying amateurs aren't important. Amateur and youth disc golf is needed to propel the sport through posterity. I think the PDGA needs to empower another organization to handle that sort of thing (EDGE and YDGA already exist, or another one could be co-opted). They can collaborate where necessary, but the PDGA needs to narrow its focus.
As an amateur that plays tournaments regularly - I think an amateur and senior tour is a huge money waste. I'll put it very frankly at risk of offending some people - nobody cares. I wouldn't spend the gas money to spectate a free non-professional event that I wasn't playing in. You can't propel the sport to the next level of recognition while at the same time trying to spread the spotlight to everyone. You've complained that "100 players get the benefit" - to which I've already responded that given an enticing product, more talent will come. I'll also say to that - name 100 Professional Golfers with a current PGA touring card. You don't need more at the top, you need to make the top shine brighter by having the PDGA effectively promote, develop, and market their product.
You keep making the same general statements JTacoma, but you haven't given a single concrete thing you think the PDGA could do to suddenly make disc golf attractive to corporate sponsors.
I'd just like this quoted for truth. This assessment of the governing body by Three Putt is dead on.
As someone who has a 70k-sized Student Loan debt, I totally understand, and begrudge nobody who has to watch the wallet.
The answer is already there...don't join, and just pay the extra $10 one or twice per year. You'll save $30 that way over the course of the season.
But let's be honest, you're much more levelheaded than most who are complaining about the cost. You see people bidding up on the marketplace for overpriced discs, then come back and complain about an actual service which requires logistics and personnel to run (I'm talking ratings, sanctioning, etc.) and they complain about <$5/month.
Unfortunately I think you're badly misreading me. When I say put on a good event - I'm talking about for the spectators. You cater to the money. If you can draw an audience in with a unique, special atmosphere and experience they will spend money. If they are going to spend money there companies will want to be a part. If companies come up big, the disc golf community - to it's high credit - is very good about representing those who represent the sport. The cycle will grow from there.
To me it's not that mind-blowing of a concept. Look at what successful, profitable sports are doing and adapt it to our sport. Why we have this fear of growth and success is something I just don't get.
- and on the topic of grassroots I think you're not looking at the big picture. Grassroots swell will only reach a bubble, and if it's not molded and given a direction it will die back down. Grassroots will not get us where we need to go, plain and simple. If you think so, then you're mistaken. I'm not meaning to be rude, but the US doesn't run on grassroots. We need media, industry, spectacle, identity...all the things that major sports have our sport has the ability to create, and I fully believe there can be a following.
Because that's not what the conversation is about. I'm talking about a culture change, a paradigm shift, an improvement in the way we approach problems of identity and growth.
Peter Shive started a thread about how he would change the PDGA. I replied and disagreed with changes he intended and stated philosophically why I think that change is not in the right direction for the sport.
I'm on topic...you're trying to drift the conversation.
People watch sports they understand. Without a much bigger base of people who know what disc golf is, you won't draw in any spectators no matter how great of an event you run. Even then, I'm not convinced disc golf will ever be a big enough spectator sport to attract those big sponsors. It's so cheap and easy to get out and play a round, maybe even with the local course pro, why would people spend the whole day watching instead? Again, I'm not seeing any concrete suggestions from you other than "make it fun for spectators" and I don't think there's a whole lot the PDGA can do for that.
A couple other people have mentioned before that our sport is much more comparable to adult softball than any of the major sports. It's relatively cheap and easy to get into, a ton of people enjoy playing but nobody comes out to watch. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, it's just not the big sponsor, big money thing some people are advocating for.
A couple other people have mentioned before that our sport is much more comparable to adult softball than any of the major sports. It's relatively cheap and easy to get into, a ton of people enjoy playing but nobody comes out to watch. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, it's just not the big sponsor, big money thing some people are advocating for.
shive
Par Member
Overlap with JTacoma03?
to JTacoma03:
Trying to stay positive, and looking for possible areas of overlap in our positions, I'll suggest this. If 'the PDGA needs to focus on the 'P' in its name and run a fantastic professional tour', as you maintain, then we need another organization for most of the rest of us. Does that work for you?
If it does, then who might it be? Would we have to start a new one from scratch, or could we maybe get somebody like Southern Nationals to expand and offer a nationally attractive package to our 'little people'?
to JTacoma03:
Trying to stay positive, and looking for possible areas of overlap in our positions, I'll suggest this. If 'the PDGA needs to focus on the 'P' in its name and run a fantastic professional tour', as you maintain, then we need another organization for most of the rest of us. Does that work for you?
If it does, then who might it be? Would we have to start a new one from scratch, or could we maybe get somebody like Southern Nationals to expand and offer a nationally attractive package to our 'little people'?
I've seen this suggestion a few times. You know more about the finances of the PDGA than most of us, is there any chance the PDGA is even close to viable without the money the ams bring in? I don't think there's any question that an amateur organization could survive with the current level of participation, but I don't think there is nearly enough money on the pro side to support an organization that could actually accomplish anything.
shive
Par Member
Could the PDGA survive?
to mashnut:
You say, "I've seen this suggestion a few times. You know more about the finances of the PDGA than most of us, is there any chance the PDGA is even close to viable without the money the ams bring in? I don't think there's any question that an amateur organization could survive with the current level of participation, but I don't think there is nearly enough money on the pro side to support an organization that could actually accomplish anything."
A good question. If all the ams went then the PDGA could not survive in an effective form. But they wouldn't all go, because some of them, like JTacoma03 and DavidSauls (post #53), want to subsidize the pros. It would depend on how many amateurs would stay. And that is kind of like asking the question, "How many PDGA members want to watch, and how many want to play?"
to mashnut:
You say, "I've seen this suggestion a few times. You know more about the finances of the PDGA than most of us, is there any chance the PDGA is even close to viable without the money the ams bring in? I don't think there's any question that an amateur organization could survive with the current level of participation, but I don't think there is nearly enough money on the pro side to support an organization that could actually accomplish anything."
A good question. If all the ams went then the PDGA could not survive in an effective form. But they wouldn't all go, because some of them, like JTacoma03 and DavidSauls (post #53), want to subsidize the pros. It would depend on how many amateurs would stay. And that is kind of like asking the question, "How many PDGA members want to watch, and how many want to play?"
I don't think that's true. Golf fans don't join the PGA just to support the pros.
TimBoyMN
Newbie
Subsidizing Pros
Subsidizing pros and helping them win money is exactly why I didn't renew my PDGA membership and exactly why I quit playing sanctioned tournaments.
Why should I give them my money when I'm an amateur? That's simply absurd. You want pros to make more, then you need to market the players so that big-time sponsorships outside the disc golf community start recognizing them and say "You know what, I think we could put a campaign behind this guy".
It's the exact same dilemma the NHL had awhile back. They did great in hockey communities and horribly outside of them, and it was simply because they wanted to market the game and not the players, but the problem is that without a face and an athlete that you can present to the public, there is no reason for a company to sponsor something. They need someone to sell their product, and the sport itself won't do that, unless of course you are the NFL which now basically owns the world. They won't sponsor a tournament unless they have faith the the public will see a player and go "Hey, I know I him, I want to use whatever he is using because he is a professional."
Subsidizing pros and helping them win money is exactly why I didn't renew my PDGA membership and exactly why I quit playing sanctioned tournaments.
Why should I give them my money when I'm an amateur? That's simply absurd. You want pros to make more, then you need to market the players so that big-time sponsorships outside the disc golf community start recognizing them and say "You know what, I think we could put a campaign behind this guy".
It's the exact same dilemma the NHL had awhile back. They did great in hockey communities and horribly outside of them, and it was simply because they wanted to market the game and not the players, but the problem is that without a face and an athlete that you can present to the public, there is no reason for a company to sponsor something. They need someone to sell their product, and the sport itself won't do that, unless of course you are the NFL which now basically owns the world. They won't sponsor a tournament unless they have faith the the public will see a player and go "Hey, I know I him, I want to use whatever he is using because he is a professional."
An interesting thought - regional series (for example out here the NorCal Series or Central Valley Series) could be co-opted and run as official PDGA Amateur series, etc.
This I could be on board with because you could set guidelines for being an official PDGA-AM series (and provide any necessary support) and then allow the people in charge to run their series within those parameters.
So if I'm reading this right - instead of an national Amateur tour you empower the local/regional series and give them a bit more prestige? The PDGA in that way could focus on professionals but use these different series as a way of recognizing spectacular AM play throughout the year (maybe season-end awards, or maybe a match-play tournament where the individual series winners could compete for national attention).
I think that would be more resource-intelligent and would be a great way to recognize some great tournament series that already exist across the country. :thmbup:
My problem here is both you and Mashnut keep putting these words into my mouth. Where did I ever say I wanted the PDGA to subsidize the pro disc golfers?
I said develop the tour.
Serious question, not trolling: Am I not explaining it right? Or is this a revolutionary concept? I'm getting the sense that when I say "focus" and "develop" the only thing both of you can think about is "more purse money". I'm definitely not talking about the PDGA providing more money for pros to win. Think outside the box guys! We need more ways to make this sports' premiere tournaments an event. Something that is exciting and spectator friendly.
