[Innova] Innova KATANA

[aphilso1]

Hey everyone. I could use some help with something Katana related so i figure this is the place. I read back about 12 pages but i still have questions..

I recently lost my absolute favorite disc of all time which was a tie dyed champion Katana (pretty old, probably at least 6 or 7 years). It took me a while but i dialed that thing in and i knew exactly how to tweak my throw to get it to do what i wanted. I could throw that thing about 50 feet further than i can my g star destroyer (my other go-to distance driver). The second it left my hand that thing was GONE.

When i lost it i immediately went out to purchase another one. I picked a 165g champion. Upon inspection immediately noticed a MAJOR difference between the two discs. The old katana had a completely flat bottom. The new one is mostly flat but when going from the outer diameter to the inner there is a slight lip that juts downward (away from the top). I knew right away i was dealing with something completely different and i wasn't wrong. I guess the phrase around here is "meat hook?" What a worthless disc. Just a hard fade right out of the hand, nothing special on the distance. I know it's not broken in yet but this is really disheartening.

So here we go:

1. What the hell is up with that lip on the bottom? is that standard operating procedure with all Katanas now? It certainly seemed to be the case at the store that i went to.

2. Do we feel that this impacts the disc significantly?

3. If not, what factor do you think determines whether the Katana will be a **** hook or a warp speed UFO?

4. Lastly, if anyone can point me in the direction of a "good" Katana i would be eternally grateful. It's taken a significant chunk of enjoyment out of my game that i really want to get back.

Thanks for reading.

I have a pretty small sample size (you can read my Katana experience over the past couple pages), but of the Katanas I own the only one that's a meathook is my domey Champion. My Blizzard has a moderate dome and flies great, and my Pro is flat so started off more overstable than I wanted; however, Pro plastic beats in quickly, and I'm already starting to see a little bit of turn from it.

If you are able to buy your disc in person, I would make sure to compare the parting line heights of the Katanas available for purchase and buy the lowest PLH. My meathook domey Champ has a very high PLH compared to the others, which is clearly the cause of its overstability. If you need to buy online, I think grabbing a lightweight Pro would have a decent chance of working out for you...maybe not the disc you'd want from Day 1, but since that plastic type beats in fast you can have a beat-in Katana fairly quickly if you commit to throwing it a bunch (and could fast track the break in period even more by throwing some parking lot skip shots).

Another alternative would be to try a different mold altogether. With so much variability in the Katana mold, it is tough to make an exact comparison. But of the three I own, here's what disc I would say flies closest:

Meathook Champ Katana = Opto-X Ballista Pro
Pro Katana = Fuzion Raider
Blizzard Katana = Moonshine or Opto Ballista (not Pro...just regular Ballista)

 

[KingCrab84]

I have a pretty small sample size (you can read my Katana experience over the past couple pages), but of the Katanas I own the only one that's a meathook is my domey Champion. My Blizzard has a moderate dome and flies great, and my Pro is flat so started off more overstable than I wanted; however, Pro plastic beats in quickly, and I'm already starting to see a little bit of turn from it.

If you are able to buy your disc in person, I would make sure to compare the parting line heights of the Katanas available for purchase and buy the lowest PLH. My meathook domey Champ has a very high PLH compared to the others, which is clearly the cause of its overstability. If you need to buy online, I think grabbing a lightweight Pro would have a decent chance of working out for you...maybe not the disc you'd want from Day 1, but since that plastic type beats in fast you can have a beat-in Katana fairly quickly if you commit to throwing it a bunch (and could fast track the break in period even more by throwing some parking lot skip shots).

Another alternative would be to try a different mold altogether. With so much variability in the Katana mold, it is tough to make an exact comparison. But of the three I own, here's what disc I would say flies closest:

Meathook Champ Katana = Opto-X Ballista Pro
Pro Katana = Fuzion Raider
Blizzard Katana = Moonshine or Opto Ballista (not Pro...just regular Ballista)

Thanks for the info! I'm a little unclear about PLH though. I found a thread on here that addresses it but it seems like the examples they gave were images of two putters and it was a very clear seam. I'm having trouble finding that line on the Katana unless it's just understood that it's the outer edge of the disc since it's such a narrow point. I took some pics, maybe there is something to be gleaned. I know it's hard without some kind of scale or comparison disc of the same mold but i'd still be interested to know if anything sticks out.

Clear/Whitish Plastic is the Champ Katana. Yellow is a G* Destroyer.
(pics are huge so links instead)

Comparison

Better shot of Katana

If anyone has an older Katana that they really love i would be curious to see a similar side profile of that disc. I feel like i'm going crazy but that bottom lip didn't seem to be there on the old ones.

 

[KingCrab84]

Generally, what determines a good vs. bad Katana for me is dome (or lack thereof). The flatter the Katana, the worse it'll fly. Flat Katanas tend to glide poorly and be really overstable.

The domier the better.

How far do you throw? Some Katanas will turn fairly easily, while others take quite a bit more work. Once you start going over 350' a Katana should turn decently.

Thank you for your comment as well! This is hilarious, though. Both responses so far claim to know exactly what makes an overstable Katana and they are polar opposite opinions.

I'm not a very strong thrower. With my Destroyer i probably top out around 300 but with the Katana i could hit around 350. I was getting nice S curve action when i put a tiny bit of an anhyzer angle on it but if i simply threw it flat it would blast off down the middle without much fade.

 

[aphilso1]

I'm having trouble finding that line on the Katana unless it's just understood that it's the outer edge of the disc since it's such a narrow point.

You are correct, PLH is just the outer edge on a driver. All other things equal, a higher PLH on a driver will always make it more overstable. Obviously there are lots of other variables (weight, plastic type, if the disc has been beat in, etc), but if everything else is the same then the higher PLH disc will be more overstable.

I took some pics, maybe there is something to be gleaned. I know it's hard without some kind of scale or comparison disc of the same mold but i'd still be interested to know if anything sticks out.

Unfortunately, a PLH comparison is only foolproof when looking at two discs of the same mold. I would assume based on the PLH and wing shape that your Destroyer flies a bit more overstable than your Katana, but I can't say for absolute certainty. To contrast that, look at post #84 in this thread (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96944&page=9) and see the massive PLH difference between two Destroyers. I would have confidently bet $100 that the Destroyer on the right was more overstable even if the poster didn't say so.

This is hilarious, though. Both responses so far claim to know exactly what makes an overstable Katana and they are polar opposite opinions.

Not really polar opposite opinions, just looking at two different variables. Some molds (like the Firebird) will typically be more overstable when flat. Other molds (like the Stag or Getaway) will typically be more overstable when domey. This really comes down to how an individual mold behaves while it is cooling, and whether the increased dome pushes down the PLH or lifts it up. TWMccoy has thrown a lot of Katanas and through personal experience he found that Katanas fly beefier when flat. I'm not contradicting his findings, just pointing out that it is a crapshoot mold and you can still get a beefy domey Katana. Because again, my beefy domey Katana has a higher PLH than the others, rather than lower. I will try to take some pictures tomorrow to show you what I'm talking about.

 

[KingCrab84]

Sounds good man, thanks. I found a few perhaps promising used katanas on ebay. Will post some comparison pics when i get em.

 

[KingCrab84]

First of the new pre used discs came today. This one is from 2010 (174) and was labeled "flat." My other discs aren't near me at the moment but even without a comparison you can tell it's a different animal than the new ones i've been dealing with. I threw it a few times taking my dog for a walk and it seemed pretty understable but it was also a little windy. I'll throw it on a course tomorrow and see what we got.

 

[KingCrab84]

Well, looks like i found a good one. Not quite as much glide as my old and it doesn't quite jump out of the hand as fast (could be the extra 9g), but it sure does act about the same in terms of flight pattern. Lots of turn but just enough fade to bring it back.

I have another one coming, a blizzard this time, but i think for now i've filled the hole in my bag.

 

[Twmccoy]

Well, looks like i found a good one. Not quite as much glide as my old and it doesn't quite jump out of the hand as fast (could be the extra 9g), but it sure does act about the same in terms of flight pattern. Lots of turn but just enough fade to bring it back.

I have another one coming, a blizzard this time, but i think for now i've filled the hole in my bag.

Blizz Katanas are tough to deal with. I've seen some good ones, but most of what I've thrown are either violently understable, or flat and fairly beefy. I haven't had a ton of luck with G* Katanas either.

A Katana that flies true to the numbers (13, 5, -2, 3) is a thing of beauty. Problem is, you may have to throw a half dozen Katanas to find one with those exact numbers.

BTW, when you start going over 400' is when your really see what the Katana can do. Huge, gliding S curve bombs.

 

[KingCrab84]

[/B]

Blizz Katanas are tough to deal with. I've seen some good ones, but most of what I've thrown are either violently understable, or flat and fairly beefy. I haven't had a ton of luck with G* Katanas either.

A Katana that flies true to the numbers (13, 5, -2, 3) is a thing of beauty. Problem is, you may have to throw a half dozen Katanas to find one with those exact numbers.

BTW, when you start going over 400' is when your really see what the Katana can do. Huge, gliding S curve bombs.

Yeah, the blizz is a nightmare. Even tried threwing it with a severe hyzer and it still flips pretty fast. Could be useful on those sharp dog legs that require a backhanded anhyzer but its so light that i dont know if ill ever be able to consistently place it.

As for the 400' threshold, ive only recently started looking at proper technique so i hope by the end of next summer i can hit that mark after a winter of youtube and a season of practice.

Thanks again for all the help

 

[Grogden]

I have been a long time fan of katanas pro star and blizzard.. And I had a real favourite domi blizzard 151. As long as there was no headwind. Unfortunately I lost it....i bought 3 or 4 bljzzards in varying weights.. but the dome just hasn't been there.. I will get the turn and fade but not the monster glide for whatever reason.. For fun I bought A174 VIP king Out of the Box is the longest disc I had ever thrown... Unfortunately after a few days it's become a bit finicky and has to be thrown with care ... The king just doesn't have the fade to come back... I wish I could find that perfect katana/ king disc to Ripon that will glide out hard and still come back.. Pro bosses... are close but I can't get them out quite as far.

 

[Twmccoy]

I have been a long time fan of katanas pro star and blizzard.. And I had a real favourite domi blizzard 151. As long as there was no headwind. Unfortunately I lost it....i bought 3 or 4 bljzzards in varying weights.. but the dome just hasn't been there.. I will get the turn and fade but not the monster glide for whatever reason.. For fun I bought A174 VIP king Out of the Box is the longest disc I had ever thrown... Unfortunately after a few days it's become a bit finicky and has to be thrown with care ... The king just doesn't have the fade to come back... I wish I could find that perfect katana/ king disc to Ripon that will glide out hard and still come back.. Pro bosses... are close but I can't get them out quite as far.

L64 Raketen might work for you. So should a star Shryke. Kings are just too damn finicky. Super long, but all over the place.

You should also take a long look at the MVP Catalyst and Relativity.

Katanas need dome to be any good. The flatter they are, the worse they fly.

 

[taco]

I'm glad I found this thread because I've been playing the Katana shuffle and I'm glad it's not just me. I can't stand wildly inconsistent molds. I had a 160g Blizzard Champ that I could get a fairly easy 430+ out of -- it felt easy compared to what I had to do to my Destroyer or Shryke (both Star 175g) to get that distance. A lot of lateral left to right movement, but not a flip, just a massive S curve with glide and reliable fade. I lost it, and the same-weight replacement flew nothing like it and flipped out of my hand.

By way of comparison for those who have thrown more of these, can a Shryke around 165g fill a similar role? I really don't like playing disc variation roulette.

 

[twistedraven]

The Shryke will be more understable. However, a good pop-top Star Shryke at 165 is a good bomber disc for people in the 320 foot range.

I've found most of my s-bomb success recently using a 168g Opto Knight and beaten in to flippy 160g Goldline Ballista Pro. Both I've reached out to 400 on flat ground with, and I think they're longer than a Shryke.

The one time I did try a Katana, it was a nice one. Found an old bean-to-death domey Star Katana that was 173iirc, and it flew a nice balanced S pattern for over 350 feet.

 

[Grogden]

I think I'm gonna go with an opto knightaround 170 if they have it..raketen showed out of stock.. I love the glide of my king but cant get past flat or it's just gone either right or into the ground as a roller.. Turning over destroyers seems to work but I can get 30 40 50' more of the king on the right throw.. I tried the relativity and was kind of liking it but launched into tree and never saw again.. It was kind of like the king with a little bit more fade at end but didn't have that super glide feel that I am looking for.. I was just starting to get it grooved then lost it maybe I'll try again. A great feeling katanas what I want but apparently they are very hard to find.

 

[Twmccoy]

The Shryke will be more understable. However, a good pop-top Star Shryke at 165 is a good bomber disc for people in the 320 foot range.

I've found most of my s-bomb success recently using a 168g Opto Knight and beaten in to flippy 160g Goldline Ballista Pro. Both I've reached out to 400 on flat ground with, and I think they're longer than a Shryke.

The one time I did try a Katana, it was a nice one. Found an old bean-to-death domey Star Katana that was 173iirc, and it flew a nice balanced S pattern for over 350 feet.

Shrykes are generally a hair more understable than Katanas, but not always. For me, the Shryke is a more consistent mold overall. I haven't really seen any aberrant ones that flew poorly. Shrykes and Katanas usually have the same amount of high speed turn, but a Katana will fade a little sooner and harder than a Shryke.

As for blizzard Katanas, they're even less consistent than heavier star or champion counterparts. Sometimes you'll get a perfect, easy bomber, but most of the time blizzard Katanas are awful.

Finding a good Katana will probably always be a crapshoot. Your best bet would be to find a store that stocks them and buy from there. Ordering online you have no clue what the disc looks like until you get it in the mail. At least with a real store you can handle the disc and look it over carefully before buying.

 

[aphilso1]

I'm glad I found this thread because I've been playing the Katana shuffle and I'm glad it's not just me. I can't stand wildly inconsistent molds. I had a 160g Blizzard Champ that I could get a fairly easy 430+ out of -- it felt easy compared to what I had to do to my Destroyer or Shryke (both Star 175g) to get that distance. A lot of lateral left to right movement, but not a flip, just a massive S curve with glide and reliable fade. I lost it, and the same-weight replacement flew nothing like it and flipped out of my hand.

By way of comparison for those who have thrown more of these, can a Shryke around 165g fill a similar role? I really don't like playing disc variation roulette.

It is DEFINITELY not just you. I bought a handful of Katanas back in October and they span the full stability spectrum. A couple of them serve their purpose (mainly, to be max distance crushers for wide open ball golf courses) but I will likely not be replacing them once they get lost or beat in. I'm just not going to play the game of buying 3-4 discs in the hopes that one of them is what I'm looking for.

As for a Shryke, I see similarities in a mid 160's Star Shryke to a really good, domey Katana. I didn't like G* Shrykes (too flat/glideless) and those are the only two Shryke plastics that I've thrown.

Dabbling in Katanas reminded me of why I don't like fast Innova molds.

 

[Twmccoy]

I think I'm gonna go with an opto knightaround 170 if they have it..raketen showed out of stock.. I love the glide of my king but cant get past flat or it's just gone either right or into the ground as a roller.. Turning over destroyers seems to work but I can get 30 40 50' more of the king on the right throw.. I tried the relativity and was kind of liking it but launched into tree and never saw again.. It was kind of like the king with a little bit more fade at end but didn't have that super glide feel that I am looking for.. I was just starting to get it grooved then lost it maybe I'll try again. A great feeling katanas what I want but apparently they are very hard to find.

Knights are really long and fun to throw... but somewhat finicky. My last trip to the field I had a 174 opto Knight that kept turning over and not coming back. You have to figure out the right amount of hyzer to release that disc with. It does poorly in cross winds or headwinds. Calm or downwind its incredibly long.

Raketens are nice. I have 3 of them. They take power pretty well without flipping over all the way. Very underrated mold. IDK if L64 is even producing them anymore.

Relativity is just incredible. Finicky, but when I'm feeling it the Relativity will outfly anything else I have. You need some patience with the Relativity, and you have to practice with it. If I had to list the longest molds I've ever thrown, the Relativity would be top 3 for sure.

As multiple people have alluded to, good Katanas aren't easy to find. However, when you find one they're almost otherworldly. Exceptional speed, glide, and distance.

 

[MaxFlight]

On the Shyrke topic, I recommend going Champ Glow. For whatever reason, they fly the best. Not really any turn when fresh, just a laser beam.

 

[aphilso1]

On the Shyrke topic, I recommend going Champ Glow. For whatever reason, they fly the best. Not really any turn when fresh, just a laser beam.

If I ever revisit the attempt at bagging a laughably fast max distance smasher, I think Champ Glow Shryke would be top of the list. That type of disc released high and with a bit of anny would create the most distance potential for me (but also the least accuracy). I also kind of want to revisit the OG Ballista mold. Same thought as the Color Glow Shryke but released with hyzer instead.

 

[Grogden]

Pro bosses are surprisingly good I went that route today I get a fair amount of turn a little fade to bring it back .. Will stand a little headwind..actually make good fhand also flip up and glide...